Hamilton City Centre | ? | 3x30 & 24 fl | Proposal

[SteelTown]

Downtown Hamilton City Centre up for sale
Site billed for “mixed-use development”

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9004031-downtown-hamilton-city-centre-up-for-sale/

"I think it's really exciting because of everything that's been happening (downtown) already," Judy Lam said. "This just accelerates it even more when you have such a big site."

Built for $70 million in 1990 by Cadillac Fairview Corporation, the former Eaton Centre is now home to retail and office space, including approximately 120,000 square feet taken up by city staff.

A CBRE spokesperson declined to comment on the listing Friday as it's an active deal, but the online offering calls it an "extraordinary opportunity to acquire a major development parcel that is ideally positioned to address the significant demand for new housing and mixed-use space in Hamilton."

Lam said she was notified about the listing as the seller wants to work with the city to inform potential buyers about what's happening locally.

While there is no asking price, downtown sites have recently sold for between $8 million and $12 million an acre, Lam said.

"The prices have really gone up dramatically," she said, adding there aren't many large sites available downtown.

In 2011, the City Centre was purchased for about $25 million by Ron McCowan.

"Obviously a lot has changed since 2011," Lam said. "It's going to be way above $25 million, that's what I'm thinking."

With council having signed off on a new downtown secondary plan in April, what could be built on the site is "very flexible," but ground-floor commercial space is a requirement, she said.

Ideal developments could include anything that adds to the "vibrancy" of the city and is pedestrian-focused, she said, noting the current site "didn't live up to the potential." She pointed to the possibility of a post-secondary campus, incubator space or residential development.

"It is possible because it is such a large site to have either one tower or you could have multiple towers," she said.

Ward 2 councillor Jason Farr sees "tremendous potential" at the site given its proximity to "just about everything."

He said he expects interested developers would want to invest in a mixed-use redevelopment.

"There's definitely ... a market for it. It's downtown, it's Hamilton, it's very desirable, and it's applicable to our zoning," he said. "My own personal opinion is that would be the optimum use."

In 2014, the Hamilton City Centre sold as part of a $109-million deal swapping four retail centres in Ontario for equity in Partners Real Estate Investment Trust. The vendor was named in Partners securities filings as Holyrood Holdings Limited.

In February 2018, Holyrood said they had refinanced the Hamilton City Centre with a different financial institution.

[lachlanholmes]

Looks like Lamb is out of the picture here. https://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/90...own-hamilton-mall-/#.W_QF-WQ8010.twitter

[LRTfan]

dang! Hopefully someone like him goes all in here.

[hamilton23]

I'm not sure why Cadillac Fairview hasn't swooped in and bought this yet?

We need a proper urbanized mall. Jackson Square doesn't cut it. I'm certain Cadillac Fairview would be able to bring in reputable tenants that would those living in the core. It sucks having to drive far to go to a good clothing store, electronic store, etc. CF has the relationships with reputable and high-end tenants. It sucks having to drive to a good clothing store if you live in the core, same goes for electronic stores, sporting goods/wear. They already have a presence on the Mountain. It would be a smart move on their end. Maybe they've already tried to purchase? Also, CF could also build condos here too. They are the developers behind the ICE Tower on York St in Toronto. They can do residential and commercial and they have the connection. It makes too much sense...

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by hamilton23

I'm not sure why Cadillac Fairview hasn't swooped in and bought this yet?

We need a proper urbanized mall. Jackson Square doesn't cut it. I'm certain Cadillac Fairview would be able to bring in reputable tenants that would those living in the core. It sucks having to drive far to go to a good clothing store, electronic store, etc. CF has the relationships with reputable and high-end tenants. It sucks having to drive to a good clothing store if you live in the core, same goes for electronic stores, sporting goods/wear. They already have a presence on the Mountain. It would be a smart move on their end. Maybe they've already tried to purchase? Also, CF could also build condos here too. They are the developers behind the ICE Tower on York St in Toronto. They can do residential and commercial and they have the connection. It makes too much sense...

To bring it up to CF standards, it will likely require like $300 million in renovations. The entire interior would need to get replaces, all the escalators would need to be replaces, the entire exterior would need to be redone and the first floor would likely be opened up to allow street traffic to enter the mall.

It would be a huge undertaking, and while they could add a residential tower, they may let someone else do the renovation and then buy it up once it's done so they can ensure the mall can handle the stores and quality.

[hamilton23]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

To bring it up to CF standards, it will likely require like $300 million in renovations. The entire interior would need to get replaces, all the escalators would need to be replaces, the entire exterior would need to be redone and the first floor would likely be opened up to allow street traffic to enter the mall.

It would be a huge undertaking, and while they could add a residential tower, they may let someone else do the renovation and then buy it up once it's done so they can ensure the mall can handle the stores and quality.

CF has two massive residential towers in Toronto (Ice Towers) and possibly other residential properties I'm not familiar with. I don't think they would need to do $300 million in renovations at all to bring it up to their standards. They have different malls of different sizes in their portfolio.

For example, if anyone is familiar with the Sherway Gardens expansion and renovation project, that cost CF roughly $200-250 million and we're talking extremely extensive additions and renovations ( I worked on the project). These renovations and expansion could only happen at Sherway because they had the land to make it work. This property is much smaller than Sherway, so the price wouldn't be the same or more.

I'm not in anyway saying CF will purchase this, but they have the connections with potential retail tenants and they also have experience building residential condos as well. It would be a seamless fit, to be honest.

While I'm all in favor of building more condos and apartments (I'm in the business!) I would love to see some more mid-tier to higher-end retailers in the downtown core. The core has to be a destination within our city and one of the biggest things it currently lacks is retail stores. With more and more people moving into thousands of condo and apartment units that have just been or are currently being built, this feels almost like a no-brainer. Residents of the core don't want to have to drive up to Lime Ridge or Maple View to have a decent shopping experience. We have the space to make it work in the core.

Anyways, it's a pipe dream of mine. We'll see what happens with it in the end.

[ZTrade]

I second the downtown needing more electronic/clothing store options. It reinforces that stigma of the Mountain being higher class living than Downtown when the retail options reflect it...hoping these new condos over the next 5 years attract more higher income earners to the area so these retailers are enticed to open shop.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by hamilton23

CF has two massive residential towers in Toronto (Ice Towers) and possibly other residential properties I'm not familiar with. I don't think they would need to do $300 million in renovations at all to bring it up to their standards. They have different malls of different sizes in their portfolio.

For example, if anyone is familiar with the Sherway Gardens expansion and renovation project, that cost CF roughly $200-250 million and we're talking extremely extensive additions and renovations ( I worked on the project). These renovations and expansion could only happen at Sherway because they had the land to make it work. This property is much smaller than Sherway, so the price wouldn't be the same or more.

I personally think it would cost $300million, or at least $200 million. Replacing the escalators alone would cost $1.5-3 million alone. The entire interior, while a beautiful homage to the 90s, is likely a gut job. Every light, wall, ceiling and floor would likely need to be replaced. The elevators in the West section need to be replaced, as does the central one most likely. Every entrance door would need to be redone, and likely expanded to be larger and grand. The exterior would likely need to be completely torn off and new entrances directly into stores from James and York would need to occur. The stairs on the North-East corner would need to be replaced to be less steep and provide options for accessibility, all the railings would need to be replaced. Elevators and escalators being replaced would alone be $5 million - $10 million.

Further, CF would actually have to pay the property taxes the current owners have not, and paying for the interest on whatever loan they have to get for the space without making any profit at all. Entire units would need to be reworked, lights, plumbing, electrical, HVAC would likely all need to be replaced. It's like 30+ years old with limited to no maintenance done.

HCC is a massive undertaking. It's basically an abandoned mall that would need to be brought up to modern standards, plus with renovations come the need to bring up to accessibility standards.

That is if they want to do it properly. If they just want to do what every other owner has been doing, put in like $10 million and get it working as a mall again. It would be under construction for a decade though as they slowly fixed everything.

[hamilton23]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

I personally think it would cost $300million, or at least $200 million. Replacing the escalators alone would cost $1.5-3 million alone. The entire interior, while a beautiful homage to the 90s, is likely a gut job. Every light, wall, ceiling and floor would likely need to be replaced. The elevators in the West section need to be replaced, as does the central one most likely. Every entrance door would need to be redone, and likely expanded to be larger and grand. The exterior would likely need to be completely torn off and new entrances directly into stores from James and York would need to occur. The stairs on the North-East corner would need to be replaced to be less steep and provide options for accessibility, all the railings would need to be replaced. Elevators and escalators being replaced would alone be $5 million - $10 million.

Further, CF would actually have to pay the property taxes the current owners have not, and paying for the interest on whatever loan they have to get for the space without making any profit at all. Entire units would need to be reworked, lights, plumbing, electrical, HVAC would likely all need to be replaced. It's like 30+ years old with limited to no maintenance done.

HCC is a massive undertaking. It's basically an abandoned mall that would need to be brought up to modern standards, plus with renovations come the need to bring up to accessibility standards.

That is if they want to do it properly. If they just want to do what every other owner has been doing, put in like $10 million and get it working as a mall again. It would be under construction for a decade though as they slowly fixed everything.

I agree that there is a lot of work that would have to be done to the existing property (if the new buyer decides to keep it intact and do extensive renovations) or if they want to demolish and start from scratch. Either option is very costly and I'm not disagreeing at all regarding the extensive scope of work.

I do disagree with the $300 million budget though. The property and land itself aren't large enough to warrant that kind of budget. I could see a project like this costing anywhere in the $100-150 million range.

This is all speculating if they decided to make this a shopping centre, which is only my personal hope. If a purchaser decides to make this a mix residential/commercial project, the cost could still hover in the $100-150 price range. We're all speculating right now because there's no current buyer and therefore there's no plan.

[durandy]

Originally Posted by hamilton23

I'm not sure why Cadillac Fairview hasn't swooped in and bought this yet?

We need a proper urbanized mall. Jackson Square doesn't cut it. I'm certain Cadillac Fairview would be able to bring in reputable tenants that would those living in the core. It sucks having to drive far to go to a good clothing store, electronic store, etc. CF has the relationships with reputable and high-end tenants. It sucks having to drive to a good clothing store if you live in the core, same goes for electronic stores, sporting goods/wear. They already have a presence on the Mountain. It would be a smart move on their end. Maybe they've already tried to purchase? Also, CF could also build condos here too. They are the developers behind the ICE Tower on York St in Toronto. They can do residential and commercial and they have the connection. It makes too much sense...

I agree with this but I just have this picture of CF executives touring HCC and walking into Hart and immediately walking out and getting back in their cars.

[hamilton23]

Originally Posted by durandy

I agree with this but I just have this picture of CF executives touring HCC and walking into Hart and immediately walking out and getting back in their cars.

Lol that could be a scenario, but CF is a renowned company and I'm sure the executives would have the intelligence and business acumen to look beyond what's currently at the City Centre and envision what they could potentially do with the space.

The Downtown is on an upward trajectory in terms of residential developments. More and more people are moving into the core or just outside of the core and it's only the beginning... CF would have this data along with data on future developments and I'm sure they would love to set roots in the Downtown Core and garner business not just from the Mountain at Lime Ridge but Downtown as well.

On paper, it's a win-win. I know CF is currently building a big office tower beside their ICE condo towers on York St in Downton Toronto and they might be busy with other future and current developments. They might not even have Hamilton on their radar. It's a personal dream of mine for them to build a shopping centre Downtown, but it's a big game of speculation at this point.

[davidcappi]

CF has two massive residential towers in Toronto (Ice Towers) and possibly other residential properties I'm not familiar with. I don't think they would need to do $300 million in renovations at all to bring it up to their standards. They have different malls of different sizes in their portfolio.

The residential portion of ICE was largely handled by Lanterra, with CF handling the retail and office building under construction next door at 16 york. CF doesn't regularly build residential without partnering with another developer. They're partnering with Lanterra again on the residential development of Don Mills.

[hamilton23]

Originally Posted by davidcappi

The residential portion of ICE was largely handled by Lanterra, with CF handling the retail and office building under construction next door at 16 york. CF doesn't regularly build residential without partnering with another developer. They're partnering with Lanterra again on the residential development of Don Mills.

That partnership between a reputable commercial real estate company (CF) and a reputable residential developer (Lanterra) would do absolute wonders for the City Centre property in my opinion.

[King&James]

I think that Limeridge Mall will be as close as CF will come to downtown Hamilton. Vertical retailing is a challenge in most markets, here is no different. Convert the lower level to a parking garage and bring office to east portion of third floor. Have two condo towers where Eatons footprint used to be with entrance along York. Ground floor restaurants with street orientation with patios.

[hamilton23]

Originally Posted by King&James

I think that Limeridge Mall will be as close as CF will come to downtown Hamilton. Vertical retailing is a challenge in most markets, here is no different. Convert the lower level to a parking garage and bring office to east portion of third floor. Have two condo towers where Eatons footprint used to be with entrance along York. Ground floor restaurants with street orientation with patios.

I agree about the difficulty, but it's been done and I have faith that they would be able to achieve it. I also believe that there's a huge opportunity in Downtown Hamilton that CF can easily tap in to.

[lachlanholmes]

Considering Cadillac Fairview built the Hamilton Eaton Centre and sold it for a fraction of the cost it cost to build I doubt they'd want to return again...

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Forget about renovation. Let's talk demolition. How much would that cost?

[lachlanholmes]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Forget about renovation. Let's talk demolition. How much would that cost?

I like the way you think. Depends on the demolition though, I guess. Since it has a foundation that is strong enough to support a larger building, would it need a more "gentler" demolition to keep that foundation intact or would be easier to get rid of it all and start from scratch?

[mikevbar1]

Remember, Cadillac Fairview's website says this:

https://www.cadillacfairview.com/en_CA/portfolio-map/development.html Cadillac Fairview's development activity is primarily focused on redeveloping existing assets and new development projects in our four core markets in Canada: Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto and Montreal.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by mikevbar1

Remember, Cadillac Fairview's website says this:

Fair, but CF is also redeveloping and renovating LimeRidge