Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[mr.A]

Lets focus on getting the skytrain extended to Langley!!! Keep the pressure on the politicians

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

McCallum's councillors got between 27 and 36% of the vote, the ones from Surrey First got 22-30%. There wasn't an overwhelming landslide of votes for McCallum's team.

Edit: That said Integrity Now also ran on an anti-LRT / pro-SkyTrain position, although not as confrontational as McCallum's, and they did relatively well in the municipal election too so...

In our first past the post system the popular vote doesn't matter because the popular vote doesn't get you elected. Doug and his team all but wiped out Surrey 1st under the current system. This gave them command of city council. The voters elected Doug to build Skytrain. If would be different if Surrey 1st had half the seats in city council. That is my point.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by Millennium2002

That is not how preloading works...

If SkyTrain will be on elevated guideway (and it most likely will for grade separation and safety reasons), you can drive columns directly to bedrock or use localized friction piles for most of the route.

In contrast, a larger surface area is required to properly support a road and the traffic on top; preloading is used in this case because it is deemed to be cheaper to let the ground passively compress under its own weight before use vs actively stabilizing the soil or building an overpass. Most governments here are in no rush to get road projects done at the expense of the taxpayer.

It's likely that the foundation will be a concrete pad buried under the ground for most of the uplands area to Surrey. There is no bed rock close. This is what was used for the Brentwoood area. I tested the soil for the foundations along this section during construction in 2000-2001 so I had a good look at the construction.

[BirchTrain]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

In our first past the post system the popular vote doesn't matter because the popular vote doesn't get you elected. Doug and his team all but wiped out Surrey 1st under the current system. This gave them command of city council. The voters elected Doug to build Skytrain. If would be different if Surrey 1st had half the seats in city council. That is my point.

FYI, municipal elections here in Surrey use a plurality at-large system. There are no electoral districts like the ones in our provincial and federal elections, but representatives to represent the entire city. McCallum received the most votes out of all the other mayoral candidates, and the top 8 performing council candidates were elected. FPTP and this are both plurality systems, but they are not the same.

Anyways, this was off topic.

[ronthecivil]

Originally Posted by Millennium2002

That is not how preloading works...

If SkyTrain will be on elevated guideway (and it most likely will for grade separation and safety reasons), you can drive columns directly to bedrock or use localized friction piles for most of the route.

In contrast, a larger surface area is required to properly support a road and the traffic on top; preloading is used in this case because it is deemed to be cheaper to let the ground passively compress under its own weight before use vs actively stabilizing the soil or building an overpass. Most governments here are in no rush to get road projects done at the expense of the taxpayer.

My intention was to build new road lanes where the preload was, and then put the skytrain where the road was. It's easir to put the piles in that way, and it centers the skytrain on the future road....

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by ronthecivil

My intention was to build new road lanes where the preload was, and then put the skytrain where the road was. It's easir to put the piles in that way, and it centers the skytrain on the future road....

There's no guarantee that the ground under the current road had been preloaded enough for the weight of the SkyTrain pillars and guideway though.

[ronthecivil]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

There's no guarantee that the ground under the current road had been preloaded enough for the weight of the SkyTrain pillars and guideway though.

Of course not. It would just be easier/better to drive piles through as the ground has been slightly improved.

Plus the work would happen on a nice platform (the existing roadway) instead of in the muck.

Plus you could be putting out the preload in the spring.

Would make for easier/cheaper construction.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by tybuilding

It's likely that the foundation will be a concrete pad buried under the ground for most of the uplands area to Surrey. There is no bed rock close. This is what was used for the Brentwoood area. I tested the soil for the foundations along this section during construction in 2000-2001 so I had a good look at the construction.

I'm curious: is that up along Lougheed, or just down through the swampy sections at Gilmore and Holdom? I'm wondering what my house would do in an earthquake...

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm no fan of Brodie or McCallum, but from what I followed, Brodie did have at least one point. He complained that we shouldn't be letting cities set regional policy. Yet that's just what they did when they allowed Surrey to pick LRT, and now to change their mind.

He referenced Richmond's then-preference for street level LRT for the Canada Line (Richmond portion anyway), and they were over-ridden.

You can argue what the right choice is (Skytrain for ALL, including Canada Line), but I think it's a fair point that billions of regional/provincial/federal dollars shouldn't be re-prioritized willy-nilly by populist morons that get voted in by a marginal number of votes.

If anything though this is a return to the original policy.

Regarding the Canada Line and the Evergreen Line the provincial government at the time didn't let the cities dictate the technology, they chose what was best for the region.

Luckily the city of Vancouver has essentially been in agreement with Translink and the Province regarding the Broadway Line so there hasn't really been any contention there (but all options were still thoroughly explored, plus public input, which also all favored Skytrain).

Now lets switch over to Surrey.

Several options were shown and studied.

No less than a couple years ago it was the worst kept secret that both the province and Translink preferred Skytrain down Fraser over LRT.

As for the L-Line, the preferred choice leaned to rapid bus but Surrey City council and the local business association had been unilaterally pushing LRT so hard that neither Translink or the province really wanted to challenge them and decided to throw them a very expensive bone.

This was also largely done without any real consultation with the public.

While not ideal, the Fraser Line documents and maps still general showed a favored direction towards Skytrain or at worst undecided.

Then, out of nowhere, the Surrey council and business association went out on a limb and started referring to the Fraser Line as LRT as well. Soon they repeated what was essentially a lie so much that Translink went against their own personal preference and slowly gave in while the province said nothing.

This was the failing of Translink and the province at this point IMO. They should have put their foot down here as had been done for the Canada Line and the Evergreen Line.

So in reality the Fraser Line was never officially "LRT" when the 10 year plan was approved / put into motion.

Luckily this all backfired on the old Surrey council and business association, they pushed too hard and stretched themselves to far, and the public pushed back.

At the same time, it is obvious that Translink is actually happy with this turn of events. They have not (and probably never will) directly say it, but through their passive actions and the options they gave to the mayors to vote on (essentially strong arming those who wanted to vote no to accept the change) it is pretty obvious that Skytrain is their preferred choice.

So hopefully this little escapade into letting Surrey get its way with LRT for a couple years, wasting time and money, before reverting back to what was essentially the original plan teaches our region not to do this again.

We are just lucky how things have turned out this time.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

...As for the L-Line, the preferred choice leaned to rapid bus but Surrey City council and the local business association had been unilaterally pushing LRT so hard that neither Translink or the province really wanted to challenge them and decided to throw them a very expensive bone...

Translink capitulated on the L-Line in order to get Surrey backing in the mayor's plan for the Broadway line. That was all fallout from the transit referendum, which stemmed from the provincial government's bad-faith "negotiations" (which they promised but never followed through on) about funding sources. There's a long history of botched transit policy since the Olympics, it's basically a lost decade during which the province was spending a ton of money on road projects.

It's so refreshing to see a new provincial government that actually seems to want to work with the cities to get the job done.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

If anything though this is a return to the original policy.

Regarding the Canada Line and the Evergreen Line the provincial government at the time didn't let the cities dictate the technology, they chose what was best for the region.

Luckily the city of Vancouver has essentially been in agreement with Translink and the Province regarding the Broadway Line so there hasn't really been any contention there (but all options were still thoroughly explored, plus public input, which also all favored Skytrain).

Now lets switch over to Surrey.

Several options were shown and studied.

No less than a couple years ago it was the worst kept secret that both the province and Translink preferred Skytrain down Fraser over LRT.

As for the L-Line, the preferred choice leaned to rapid bus but Surrey City council and the local business association had been unilaterally pushing LRT so hard that neither Translink or the province really wanted to challenge them and decided to throw them a very expensive bone.

This was also largely done without any real consultation with the public.

While not ideal, the Fraser Line documents and maps still general showed a favored direction towards Skytrain or at worst undecided.

Then, out of nowhere, the Surrey council and business association went out on a limb and started referring to the Fraser Line as LRT as well. Soon they repeated what was essentially a lie so much that Translink went against their own personal preference and slowly gave in while the province said nothing.

This was the failing of Translink and the province at this point IMO. They should have put their foot down here as had been done for the Canada Line and the Evergreen Line.

So in reality the Fraser Line was never officially "LRT" when the 10 year plan was approved / put into motion.

Luckily this all backfired on the old Surrey council and business association, they pushed too hard and stretched themselves to far, and the public pushed back.

At the same time, it is obvious that Translink is actually happy with this turn of events. They have not (and probably never will) directly say it, but through their passive actions and the options they gave to the mayors to vote on (essentially strong arming those who wanted to vote no to accept the change) it is pretty obvious that Skytrain is their preferred choice.

So hopefully this little escapade into letting Surrey get its way with LRT for a couple years, wasting time and money, before reverting back to what was essentially the original plan teaches our region not to do this again.

We are just lucky how things have turned out this time.

Perfectly said. LRT might have gone ahead IF they had left 104th ave 4 lanes all the way AND if they ( Surrey 1st ) had not been so greedy and labeled Fraser Hwy as LRT. Those 2 items got people upset and they voted accordingly. No wonder Hepner chose not to run again. She had an idea things were going south and bailed out.

[Firebrand]

https://www.straight.com/news/1165546/su...-mccallum-blowing-chance-create-bcs-most

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

https://www.straight.com/news/1165546/su...-mccallum-blowing-chance-create-bcs-most

From the 'article'

Surrey city staff knew that they could avoid the mistakes of other communities by planning a rapid-transit system that would make their downtown the envy of the province.

Under the direction of Paul Ching Lee, Surrey came up with a smart light-rail plan that would connect Guilford and Newton with its burgeoning city centre—anchored by the aforementioned Bing Thom-designed buildings.

This was going to be the carrot to draw more commercial activity, more investment, more tourists, and a 21st-century vibe that would rebrand Surrey in the eyes of the country.

Surrey Centre is already becoming an academic and health-research hub—and this transportation plan would accelerate this trend.

A street-level LRT system was going to make Surrey seem connected, hip, environmentally forward thinking, and far more contemporary than suburban cities marred by ugly SkyTrain guide rails.

Surrey Centre is on its way to becoming an authentic downtown destination, but it needs the transportation network to complete the job.

...

But for some strange reason, Mayor Doug McCallum wants to unravel this vision of connecting Newton and Guildford with Surrey's downtown.

Instead, he's committed to developing a costly SkyTrain down the Fraser Highway to Fleetwood that will reinforce Surrey's status as a bedroom community.

What are the residents going to get in return? More sprawl and more property taxes when this line is inevitably extended to Langley.

Who are the winners in this game? Other municipalities—including Coquitlam, Vancouver, and Burnaby—that are competing with Surrey for commercial investment.

There's a reason why the Surrey Board of Trade is so vehemently in favour of the sensible Surrey-Newton-Guildford LRT project.

It's affordable and it has the potential to be extended to other town centres in Surrey.

The SkyTrain line, on the other hand, will simply bring more people from Surrey into Vancouver, where they'll spend their money and go to work.

...

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

https://www.straight.com/news/1165546/su...-mccallum-blowing-chance-create-bcs-most

This article is a joke. Surrey is not the right fit for a street level train. People who use transit need to get where they are going as seamlessly as possible. Skytrain provides that. Fleetwood and Cloverdale will have better and quicker access to the rest of the region once the line is completed. Connecting the town centres can be done by bus.

[flipper316]

That writer sounds like he or she is so out of touch with reality. Sounds like some Vancouver anti car bicycle riding granola eating hipster.

[mr.A]

As a frequent driver using King George I don't need the already bad traffic to be gloged with a streetcar. Build a bus lane move the cyclists out of KG.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

https://www.straight.com/news/1165546/su...-mccallum-blowing-chance-create-bcs-most

tl;dr - Light rail "feels" like a better choice than SkyTrain. Been there, heard that. Next!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

tl;dr - Light rail "feels" like a better choice than SkyTrain. Been there, heard that. Next!

Along with "ugly SkyTrain". How seriously are we supposed to take anyone who's main complaint against Skytrain is that the cement columns and overhead rails are ugly.

[MIPS]

This was going to be the carrot to draw more commercial activity, more investment, more tourists, and a 21st-century vibe that would rebrand Surrey in the eyes of the country.

Who the hell goes to Surrey as a tourist? You can't call crackheads exotic wildlife as much as you can't call graffitti fine art.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by MIPS

Who the hell goes to Surrey as a tourist? You can't call crackheads exotic wildlife as much as you can't call graffitti fine art.

OK... you got a laugh out of me.

I am wondering how many people actually travel between Newton and Guildford without getting on or off the Skytrain? Do Newton people get on the bus to go shopping at Surrey Central or Guildford or vice versa? I am sure some people travel between these town centres for work but shopping can't be the main reason. Many people have a reason to travel outside Surrey and using the Skytrain is a popular method. Buses tend to feed into that system. Trying to keep people in Surrey because you built a slow, trendy street car won't change the reason people get on the Skytrain. Fleetwood residents and beyond should be able to have that same opportunity. Skytrain will attract development along the Fraser Hwy route and increase demand for service.