Amazon HQ2 thread

[lio45]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I understand where she's coming from, but debt forgiveness is not a financial equivalent to a tax break.

Exactly. NY doesn't "have" $1.7 billion sitting there. It's willing to NOT charge it to Amazon, knowing that if Amazon doesn't come, the NY coffers wouldn't be getting it anyway.

It's like a landlord giving a few months free to a tenant who will also be paying other months, because otherwise the unit would be just empty (which, financially, is even worse than giving a "major tax break" to the tenant). It does not mean the landlord has extra cash to waste - quite the opposite actually, you're desperate enough to have them pick you that you're accepting to charge less than you should!

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

HQ2 HQ3 BACKLASH: Democrats from Queens seem to be against HQ2 coming in with plans to hire 25,000 people.



Then there's this:



Then she retweeted this from @davidsirota:



and then said this:



There are more tweets, but I think we get the picture. She was pretty active on the Twitter yesterday.

These are very valid concerns tho.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by The North One

She's totally right, not sure what your problem is.

You believe that if Amazon says "fuck that, we'll just go to NoVA and Nashville for our HQ2 and HQ3", then this augurs well for the NYC Subway being less crumbling in the future...?

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by The North One

She's totally right, not sure what your problem is.

No one said she was wrong.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

No one said she was wrong.

Three of us so far kind of did. Me, and them:

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Originally Posted by suburbanite

debt forgiveness is not a financial equivalent to a tax break.

[10023]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

These are very valid concerns tho.

But betrays an ignorance of how tax incentives work.

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by lio45

Three of us so far kind of did. Me, and them:

I read those posts as you all saying she's being unrealistic.

I mean, she is right in theory, but what she's fighting for isn't practical in this context.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

I read those posts as you all saying she's being unrealistic.

I mean, she is right in theory, but what she's fighting for isn't practical in this context.

I wouldn't even call that "theory". More like "utopia".

"In theory", if I charged all my tenants a million dollars in monthly rent, I'd soon be a billionaire. Sure, but that's not even worthy of being called theory - that's just fantasy.

I reserve "in theory" for concepts that have at least a nonzero chance of maybe coming close to matching practice, in ideal circumstances.

[Mentallect]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

I read those posts as you all saying she's being unrealistic.

I mean, she is right in theory, but what she's fighting for isn't practical in this context.

All quality MBA programs teach never give incentives to corporations. Incentives do not determine where corporations go. Talent, infrastructure, and education compose 95% of the consideration. Incentives are never repaid either as any economist knows. Better NY use the 1.7 billion for infrastructure which creates jobs, benefits the entire population, and creates conditions for other tech companies to come without offering them bribes. Incentives also places tech companies who are in competition with Amazon because they can't pay talent the same amount while maintaining the same margins. Cuomo picks winner and losers by not having equal starting points. Amazon starts on the 30 meter line of 100 meter race, every other tech start up starts at the 0 yard line. Cuoma should be recalled as governor.

[fleonzo]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

No one said she was wrong.

She's wrong and hasn't been right about much of anything! How she got elected is mind boggling....

[Mentallect]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

Yeah I dont think "Crystal City" carried enough of a caché to be a single site.

All along I've held the opinion that if they chose a city with lesser stature than Seattle, then what's the point?

Crystal City lost 17,000 government jobs during BRAC in 2005, and 7,000 jobs when the patent office moved to Alexandria. Crystal City has more than 30,000,000 SF of available open space for building. That is more than 3 times when Amazon would need if all 50,000 jobs came to National Landing. People make comments without adequate research, knowledge, or facts. NYC does not have the amount of space available in a single location, CC and Potomac Yards can fit 150,000 jobs today.

[fleonzo]

Originally Posted by lio45

Three of us so far kind of did. Me, and them:

Make that four of us!

[Sun Belt]

Given who voted for her, it's definitely in her interest to keep her district poor and uneducated, or else she won't have a job in a couple years.

Amazon is a huge threat to her political future. 40,000 educated people with a salary of $150,000 will completely change her district.

[niwell]

Ah yes, NYC - the city where that land will totally sit vacant if the ever benevolent Jeff Bezos doesn't grace it with his glorious presence.

Binding tax financing mechanisms rarely, if ever, end up being a net positive for a municipality and often end up as perverse incentives in the end. They're a fun thought exercise but tend to ignore how municipal budgeting and expenditures are calculated and play out over time. And that's without taking into account the spin-off effects. I suppose it's possible that this process is completely different in the US as opposed to Canada (which I have direct experience in), but I kind of doubt it.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Mentallect

All quality MBA programs teach never give incentives to corporations. Incentives do not determine where corporations go. Talent, infrastructure, and education compose 95% of the consideration. Incentives are never repaid either as any economist knows. Better NY use the 1.7 billion for infrastructure which creates jobs, benefits the entire population, and creates conditions for other tech companies to come without offering them bribes. Incentives also places tech companies who are in competition with Amazon because they can't pay talent the same amount while maintaining the same margins. Cuomo picks winner and losers by not having equal starting points. Amazon starts on the 30 meter line of 100 meter race, every other tech start up starts at the 0 yard line. Cuoma should be recalled as governor.

What MBA program teaches public policy? Once again, paying for infrastructure out of pocket is completely different than forgoing future revenue.

[C.]

Originally Posted by Mentallect

Crystal City lost 17,000 government jobs during BRAC in 2005, and 7,000 jobs when the patent office moved to Alexandria. Crystal City has more than 30,000,000 SF of available open space for building. That is more than 3 times when Amazon would need if all 50,000 jobs came to National Landing. People make comments without adequate research, knowledge, or facts. NYC does not have the amount of space available in a single location, CC and Potomac Yards can fit 150,000 jobs today.

Yes, the DC metro area could absorb all 50,000 jobs for HQ2 site. But NYC offered something a little more interesting than a metric regarding the sheer amount of available office space in a suburban campus-like setting.

Crystal City needs a giant makeover and Amazon will hopefully help them do it because right now many of the buildings feel corporate and impersonal, in my opinion.

[skyscraperpage17]

There's a ton of stuff they teach in school that sounds good in theory (or in a textbook) but doesn't apply in the real word. A perfect example would be the law of supply and demand.

That's hardly a new relevation. It's why businesses tend to prefer hiring people with a lot of real world experience for positions versus freshly minted graduates.

[Mentallect]

Originally Posted by The North One

She's totally right, not sure what your problem is.

Amazon has paid trolls to make their corporate welfare seems like a win for NYC and Arlington, but it is really a loss. Neither area needed to pay for jobs. Arlington has a 2.9% unemployment rate without Amazon. Median household income in CC is over $125,000, Pentagon city is over $240,000, Aurora Highlands is $100,500, Potomac Yards is over $140,000, Del Ray is over $125,000 year, Shirlington is over $105,000, Fairfax County and North Arlington both well over $130K a year. Employee theft is rampant in the HQ1.5 area since employment is so low. We did not need Amazon. We definitely did not need to steal tax dollars from residents to give to a superbillionaire.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Given who voted for her, it's definitely in her interest to keep her district poor and uneducated, or else she won't have a job in a couple years.

Amazon is a huge threat to her political future. 40,000 educated people with a salary of $150,000 will completely change her district.

lol you're totally delusional.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Mentallect

Better NY use the 1.7 billion for infrastructure which creates jobs, benefits the entire population, and creates conditions for other tech companies to come without offering them bribes.

There is no $1.7 billion. It doesn't exist. Obviously the subway isn't getting more money if Amazon had chosen Tulsa. One would expect that 40k+ employees earning 150k+ on average will be more beneficial to the tax base than otherwise.

NY State is providing $1.7 billion in tax breaks, meaning Amazon is paying less than if there were absolutely no incentives. But it's still paying far more than it would almost anywhere else, because commercial/corporate taxes in NYC proper are sky high, and the city has a "no tax breaks" pledge, so the state does the dirty work.