Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[nname]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I don't know, I don't even know how economical it would be to go at-grade in Green Timbers, or the ALR, considering the number of road/water crossings that would require it to go elevated anyways.


There's no long, crossing-less section of land on the entire pathway.

Maybe instead of going with regular elevated structure, perhaps they could use a lower structure, similar to what had done in Evergreen Extension?

https://goo.gl/maps/nX4nTCGWaTB2

It must've saved some cost compared to the elevated structure that was regularly used... otherwise they wouldn't do it this way, right?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Also, if anyone needed any confirmation that LRT is dead: http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/translink-surrey-lrt-project-director

The Project Director for the LRT Project left.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'm pretty sure Surrey Council cancelling it was enough confirmation.

And yet because of Surrey businesses being in denial, they're still taking bids for it. I'm guessing their "10-20 years of nothing" is based on when they'll finally shut up and stop delaying the inevitable.

Originally Posted by nname

Maybe instead of going with regular elevated structure, perhaps they could use a lower structure, similar to what had done in Evergreen Extension?

https://goo.gl/maps/nX4nTCGWaTB2

It must've saved some cost compared to the elevated structure that was regularly used... otherwise they wouldn't do it this way, right?

Possibly, since it saves them from using a lot more concrete - as mentioned in the Broadway thread, the stuff's becoming $400/sqft or more.

[officedweller]

I think someone mentioned this before, but here's a quote:

In December 2012, B.C.’s government entered into a fixed price, performance based contract with EGRT Construction consortium for $889 million to build the rapid transit infrastructure. Under the terms of the contract EGRT will be repaid a portion of the contract cost as work progresses but will not receive final payout until the line is operating.

EGRT Construction has also agreed to assume the risk for the geotechnical conditions and face penalities if completion is delayed. EGRT Technical manager Jeff Spruston, P.Eng. explains that while EGRT carries that responsibility, it has also “passed the risk to the subcontractors who are best able to manage those risks” in back-to-back agreements.

EGRT Construction’s subcontractors include SNC-Lavalin and SNC-Lavalin Constructors, Graham Building Services, International Bridge Technologies, Jacobs Associates Canada, Rizzani de Eccher, S.E.L.I. Canada, and MMM Group.

The consortium is responsible for designing and building the elevated and at-grade guideways, a two-kilometre bored tunnel, the seven stations, power substations, train operating systems, parking facilities and a vehicle storage and light maintenance facility.

Highly unstable soils

“The geotechnical conditions are pretty good from the Lougheed area to the north end of the bored tunnel [in Port Moody],” says Preece, explaining that this section is considered mainly glacial till. But the area between Port Moody and Coquitlam is the legacy of old debris flows, old forests and logging areas and wetlands, plus ground where artesian pressures are a concern. “The area is very challenging,” he says.

“The conditions have caused engineers to look at alternative solutions to stabilize areas that must meet seismic requirements,” says Preece.

In Coquitlam, just east of Port Moody, engineers have found highly unstable soils. “We had a situation where soil conditions were highly liquefiable,” says Preece. The solution was to use timber densification on the soil. A 10-metre wide swath measuring 700 metres in length will have 12-15-metre long timbers driven into the ground at 1.2 metre intervals. A total of over 6,000 timber piles will be used to create seismic stability for the line’s guideways. While the technique of timber densification is not new and has also been used on the South Fraser Perimeter Road, “this is probably the most timber that has been used on a transit project,” he says.

Originally, the contract called for not using timbers because of a fear they would degrade. But EGRT was able to demonstrate that by ensuring the timbers in the ground remained wet, they would not be affected. The decision to use the timbers was made in collaboration with the province after other solutions did not provide the stability that was needed.

The technical director for the Province of B.C., Raymond Louie, says the solutions being implemented on the new line will “help our knowledge here” on rapid transit construction. One such application is soil mixing, which is more common in the U.S. but is having its first application in the Lower Mainland’s new transit line. Its use again arises from the need to bring sites in the Port Moody and Coquitlam area up to the seismic standards required. The process involves an on-site batch plant for low-strength concrete. The concrete is injected into the ground in columns, with the boring machine’s head able to inject the concrete and mix it with soil beginning at the bottom. The ensuing column will not only prevent the ground from moving but also provide vertical support for the guideways.

Soil mixing, which costs less than timber piles for soil stabilization, is being used on the portion of grade-level guideway by Golden Spike Lane that runs through Port Moody by the CPR tracks. Timbers are being used on a 750-foot stretch by rail tracks book-ended by the Balmoral Drive area through to Bond Street in Coquitlam.
...

https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.c...footing-metro-vancouvers-evergreen-line/

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

I saw this posted in another thread, but it needs be posted here: McCallum reveals new details for the Surrey-Langley Skytrain line.

I wonder if this can work. I've heard because of soil conditions that the section through the ALR has to be elevated which contradicts this plan.

That was one of the arguments from Translink that caught my attention.

Evidence for that assertion would be that the original railroad between New Westminster Bridge and points south ran east from the bridge, and then south through Cloverdale to Blaine where it rejoined the mainline. This line was abandoned for the current route through Delta approaching New Westminster from the south-west in part due to poor soil quality in the serpentine valley

OTOH, we're talking skytrains, not steam trains, and we have more than a century of engineering advantage on the New Westminster Southern

[WarrenC12]

What Doug isn't telling everybody is all the money is being saved because the KG-Langley extension is single tracked...

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Sheba

People have already had conniptions about them cutting down trees to widen Fraser Hwy to four lanes (to match the rest of it). Can you imagine them allowing at least as many trees to be cut down to add Skytrain without adding any car lanes.

That's been a point that's been running in the back of my mind for a while. To cut down just as many trees for Skytrain as they would for LRT/Widening would have Green Timbers advocates and environmental groups provide more resistance to the project.

Personally, if you ask me, cutting down the trees (and perhaps replanting new ones?) for a Skytrain would be worth it since it would cut down significantly on CO2 emmissions in theory.

What Doug isn't telling everybody is all the money is being saved because the KG-Langley extension is single tracked...

Lmao, could you imagine?

[flipper316]

Originally Posted by scryer

That's been a point that's been running in the back of my mind for a while. To cut down just as many trees for Skytrain as they would for LRT/Widening would have Green Timbers advocates and environmental groups provide more resistance to the project.

Personally, if you ask me, cutting down the trees (and perhaps replanting new ones?) for a Skytrain would be worth it since it would cut down significantly on CO2 emmissions in theory.




Lmao, could you imagine?

Well Green Timbers is a shell of its former self with all the buildings in it and on the outskirts of it, plus all the roads that go through it. Plus look at Hawthorne Park and its destruction with a road that goes nowhere. I don't think the city is gonna care about more trees lost in another park.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Sheba

People have already had conniptions about them cutting down trees to widen Fraser Hwy to four lanes (to match the rest of it). Can you imagine them allowing at least as many trees to be cut down to add Skytrain without adding any car lanes.

TBH, it's mostly NIMBY reasoning rather than an environmental one. Green Timbers is already fragmented by 96 Ave, and that RCMP headquarters near 140th, so putting a SkyTrain on the side of Fraser Hwy rather than the central median isn't the worst thing in the world.

[Galaxy]

I do wonder if Translink will request a canopy be built above the tracks like in New West to prevent the branches of trees from falling onto the tracks. The city will probably work to have the road widened at the same time as the construction of the right of way/tracks for the extension. The section of Fraser highway we are talking about definitely needs upgrading and improving for overall functionality. A bike lane and proper sidewalks with a curb and better lighting would all be on my personal list of things to be added while they do the work.

[BirchTrain]

You could have 4 lanes, a greenway, and SkyTrain elevated through Green Timbers for only 24 metres: https://skytrainforsurrey.org/2015/06/05...ld-save-hundreds-of-green-timbers-trees/

[Firebrand]

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/2018/11/12/surrey-skytrain-doug-mccallum/

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/2018/11/12/surrey-skytrain-doug-mccallum/

whats the overview of it?

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/2018/11/12/surrey-skytrain-doug-mccallum/

This article is full of misguided logic. The voters of Surrey chose to squash LRT, not Doug. Doug merely made the proposal and the citizens agreed with him. As for Skytrain costing more than LRT, if it is such a huge difference, then why are they building Skytrain all the way to Arbutus and then to UBC? Why not put an LRT from VCC all the way to UBC on the road with cars like was supposed to happen in Surrey? The argument is stupid if you ask me. Vancouverites don't want LRT and neither does Surrey.

"Anthony Perl, director of urban studies for Simon Fraser University, calls McCallum's proposal "the stupidest" idea he has heard yet for transportation in Metro Vancouver."

Gee, why doesn't he say the same thing about the extension to Arbutus? The rhetoric is just fear mongering at this stage. Let's see what happens on Thursday at the Mayor's meeting.

[Metro-One]

So the mayor of Richmond sounds like as asshole (I don’t know of any other billion dollar projects not already covered in the 10 year plan that are more ready than the Fraser extension to jump cue) and that SFU professor is talking some classic nonsense.

The Fraser corridor is largely ALR and parkland, and at worst the Skytrain form will only have a single less station, so how does LRT along this corridor create an urban dream yet Skytrain will create what he essentially called an urban waste land with towers around stations???

How do these people become professors? Is academia really this disconnected from reality these days? Our best friend from UBC was just as out of touch and delusional regarding urban commuting patterns. Seriously way to much ideology and no reality.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

This article is full of misguided logic. The voters of Surrey chose to squash LRT, not Doug. Doug merely made the proposal and the citizens agreed with him. As for Skytrain costing more than LRT, if it is such a huge difference, then why are they building Skytrain all the way to Arbutus and then to UBC? Why not put an LRT from VCC all the way to UBC on the road with cars like was supposed to happen in Surrey? The argument is stupid if you ask me. Vancouverites don't want LRT and neither does Surrey.

"Anthony Perl, director of urban studies for Simon Fraser University, calls McCallum's proposal "the stupidest" idea he has heard yet for transportation in Metro Vancouver."

Gee, why doesn't he say the same thing about the extension to Arbutus? The rhetoric is just fear mongering at this stage. Let's see what happens on Thursday at the Mayor's meeting.

This Anthony Pearl guy sounds like the type who will say LRT to UBC is better than Skytrain. Even recently there have been very real campaigns from these types for just that...

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

This Anthony Pearl guy sounds like the type who will say LRT to UBC is better than Skytrain. Even recently there have been very real campaigns from these types for just that...

Check this article out. This makes total sense for Vancouver. A similar argument can be made for commuters going east of KGS in Surrey.

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/ubc-skytrain-extension-santa-ono

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Check this article out. This makes total sense for Vancouver. A similar argument can be made for commuters going east of KGS in Surrey.

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/ubc-skytrain-extension-santa-ono

We know that and support that, but it doesn’t stop people like Anthony Pearl and Patrick Condon (both professors) from spreading their LRT nonsense (for both Surrey and to UBC, two lines that clearly favor Skytrain technology). Again, they are all ideology and no practicality.

[Dengler Avenue]

If people don’t listen to experts anymore, really, this is why.

[Migrant_Coconut]

I'm reminded of this whenever Fitch/Condon/Perl or whoever else once again crawls out of the woodwork and tries to "sabotage" a SkyTrain extension.

• Video Link

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/2018/11/12/surrey-skytrain-doug-mccallum/

Ah yes, ye olde tropes

But will the City of Surrey’s insistence on a more expensive system than what was approved mean Surrey will get bumped down the priority list in favour of other regional transit projects, like the Broadway extension to the Millennium Line?

...

It’s now back to the drawing board. But there are other regional transit projects on the drawing board too, and Surrey Board of Trade CEO Anita Huberman said she fears Surrey could lose its place at the front of the line.

“The Surrey Board of Trade does not want transportation investments to be delayed yet again in Surrey – and that is what will happen with this new direction,” she said.

...

“The plan that has been adopted is the plan devised by the region, the mayors’ council and TransLink,” Brodie said. “We’ve had full consultation and it’s fully funded. So if Surrey says that they don’t want a component, I recognize that we’re not going to force it on them.

“But if they say they don’t want that, then it opens up the plan. And maybe there will be an alternative in Surrey that uses that money, but it opens up the plan to other alternatives as well, and other priorities.”

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Check this article out. This makes total sense for Vancouver. A similar argument can be made for commuters going east of KGS in Surrey.

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/ubc-skytrain-extension-santa-ono

Exactly

“A transition from SkyTrain to LRT would have the same issues due to dramatically different speed and capacity of the two modes of transportation,” he says, adding that “integrating LRT traffic with automobile and pedestrian traffic introduces safety issues and accidents and exposes the system to challenges during inclement weather.”