Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Will once again reiterate the obvious. This is bittersweet.

Fantastic news that LRT has been cancelled but I fear all public transportation investments will be non-existent over the next few years. Onus will be on Translink to better public transportation with minimal investments from the City.

Most of the transportation money will likely be allocated towards road improvement projects in South Surrey and Clayton Heights.

How do I read this already? Well I overheard someone on the inside confirm that Phase II of the 105 ave connector will be officially scrapped. A shame as the corridor carried a curb separated bike lane that would have connected Guildford to Central Surrey.

SurreyFirst was a god awful party that was out of touch with the city with regards to LRT but they delivered some nifty bike infrastructure in the city and at least delivered on their promise to better transit infrastructure (new bus shelters).

It's McCallum we're talking here. He tends to act like a mule when it comes to investing on transit infrastructure.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Will once again reiterate the obvious. This is bittersweet.

Fantastic news that LRT has been cancelled but I fear all public transportation investments will be non-existent over the next few years. Onus will be on Translink to better public transportation with minimal investments from the City.

Most of the transportation money will likely be allocated towards road improvement projects in South Surrey and Clayton Heights.

How do I read this already? Well I overheard someone on the inside confirm that Phase II of the 105 ave connector will be officially scrapped. A shame as the corridor carried a curb separated bike lane that would have connected Guildford to Central Surrey.

SurreyFirst was a god awful party that was out of touch with the city with regards to LRT but they delivered some nifty bike infrastructure in the city and at least delivered on their promise to better transit infrastructure (new bus shelters).

If any money is to be spent on road improvements it is widening 152nd to 4 lanes from Colebrook road all the way to KG Hwy. This back and forth between 4 lanes and 2 lanes is just nonsense.

As for the LRT, let's see if Doug can pull his magic and get enough Mayors on board to get the Skytrain project moving forward. LRT is dead since the mayors can't force Surrey to accept something they don't want. Some will argue that the whole 10 year plan is subject to revision. It would be unwise to vote against Surrey now because those mayors will need Surrey votes in the future for their own transportation projects.

[Metro-One]

Fantastic news.

With all 3 communities that this project will directly affect (Surrey obviously, Langley City, and even Langley Township) in support of tonight’s decision, it would be asinine for the Mayors’ council to vote against this change.

Given the basic route, only having 8 stations, and research already completed I would not be surprised if construction commences in 2021.

Translink has also sent out a cryptic message of support.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

As for the LRT, let's see if Doug can pull his magic and get enough Mayors on board to get the Skytrain project moving forward.

You seem to be forgetting: Vancouver’s new mayor says he'll help push for new SkyTrain in Surrey

Vancouver’s newly elected mayor says he will do what he can to help his counterpart in Surrey enact SkyTrain extension plans instead of street-level LRT.

...

The Mayors’ Council uses weighted voting based on population to approve or reject TransLink’s long-term strategies and investment plans. Between Stewart and McCallum, both mayors have a total of 58 weighted votes of the total of 134 weighted votes amongst all 23 municipal governments and jurisdictions in Metro Vancouver.

They only need 10 more weighted votes to pass this. Both the Langley are on board (I don't know how many votes they carry).

[NewfBC]

Congrats Surrey! You'll get to ride your Skytrain to nowhere (Langley) in 20 years!

Ron.

[BirchTrain]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

Congrats Surrey! You'll get to ride your Skytrain to nowhere (Langley) in 20 years!

Ron.

Stop insulting Langley.

[Metro-One]

This actually realistically makes Langley a consideration for when I move back to Canada.

[BirchTrain]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Will once again reiterate the obvious. This is bittersweet.

Fantastic news that LRT has been cancelled but I fear all public transportation investments will be non-existent over the next few years. Onus will be on Translink to better public transportation with minimal investments from the City.

Most of the transportation money will likely be allocated towards road improvement projects in South Surrey and Clayton Heights.

How do I read this already? Well I overheard someone on the inside confirm that Phase II of the 105 ave connector will be officially scrapped. A shame as the corridor carried a curb separated bike lane that would have connected Guildford to Central Surrey.

SurreyFirst was a god awful party that was out of touch with the city with regards to LRT but they delivered some nifty bike infrastructure in the city and at least delivered on their promise to better transit infrastructure (new bus shelters).

I feel the same. I hope this change in technologies doesn’t discourage federal and provincial funding for future projects.

The 105 connector plan was to reallocate services in preparation for LRT. It was terrible. They cut through a freaking park for this. An area of the city that was designated for the protection of its environment and the enjoyment of people was razed through despite the protest of residents. Maybe the road was absolutely necessary and there was nowhere else to put it, but dammit, it’s a bad look when you have to do something like that.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by BirchTrain

The 105 connector plan was to reallocate services in preparation for LRT. It was terrible. They cut through a freaking park for this. An area of the city that was designated for the protection of its environment and the enjoyment of people was razed through despite the protest of residents. Maybe the road was absolutely necessary and there was nowhere else to put it, but dammit, it’s a bad look when you have to do something like that.

Was originally against the 105 Ave connector, however it has certainly changed Hawthorne Park- making it feel safer and more inviting (now providing more access points for cyclists). They also got rid of that unnecessary parking lot in the middle of the park.

It is a tough pill to swallow as we lose trees but it will ultimately spur on more cycling alternatives for residents.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Sheba

You seem to be forgetting: Vancouver’s new mayor says he'll help push for new SkyTrain in Surrey


They only need 10 more weighted votes to pass this. Both the Langley are on board (I don't know how many votes they carry).

Langley Township have 6 votes, Langley City have 2.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

Congrats Surrey! You'll get to ride your Skytrain to nowhere (Langley) in 20 years!

Ron.

Langley was never part of Phase 2. Doug has gotten people's hopes up with his big vision. I hope he can pull it off. Below is copied directly from Translink.

Surrey–Langley Line

Surrey and Langley are among the fastest-growing communities in the Lower Mainland. Over the next 30 years, the City of Surrey, City of Langley, and Township of Langley are expected to welcome more than 400,000 new residents and create 185,000 additional jobs. That’s why improving rapid transit in the South of Fraser area is a regional priority.

In June 2014, the Metro Vancouver Mayors' Council on Regional Transportation shared a 10-year transportation Vision outlining transit and transportation priorities to keep Metro Vancouver moving.

The Vision calls for 27 km of Light Rail Transit (LRT), including 16.5 km serving eight stops between Surrey and Langley along Fraser Highway.

Building on previous phases of planning and consultation for this important project, TransLink is now working to advance planning and design work for the project as defined in the Phase Two Investment Plan.

[Metro-One]

In all honesty I believe that the L-Line LRT would have never been cancelled if the LRT supporters didn’t push LRT onto the Fraser extension to Langley as well, especially without any public consolations. This is what really angered people I think. The sneaky nature of deciding the technology for the project. This election was the public’s chance to voice their opinion, and they chose Skytrain.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Was originally against the 105 Ave connector, however it has certainly changed Hawthorne Park- making it feel safer and more inviting (now providing more access points for cyclists). They also got rid of that unnecessary parking lot in the middle of the park.

It is a tough pill to swallow as we lose trees but it will ultimately spur on more cycling alternatives for residents.

A delivery trucker would have a different opinion on having that useless road. As Trainguy said, a lot of 104th traffic is from the highway, and its main purpose was to relocate all of that highway traffic to the side street to compensate for the loss of lanes from the LRT. When I saw the road on the map, I though it was nothing more than a publicity stunt. Bike lanes? Gimme a break. It won't go anywhere you're want to go.

[waves]

I was scouring the internet for sources on which way the Mayor's might vote to put it all together in a table. The sources are all old news by this point but I was lacking that togetherness from any one source that could really show just how the vote stacks up with how the mayors have put forth their position so far. This is what I came up with:



As some sources have reported, it does look fairly promising being only two votes short. My guesses in the sheet above are just guesses - anyone else have any more insight to how the other mayors would vote, or think that someone might vote differently from my guesses?


See the spreadsheet here: https://1drv.ms/x/s!AjWWltw_HSwzh8h31_BGzi24kP3GDg
See the Mayor's Council Governance Annex 1 for vote breakdown: https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...cilRulesofProcedureAdoptedApril72017.pdf
Source 1
Source 2:+ primary source.
Source 3
Source 4
Source 5

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by BirchTrain

The 105 connector plan was to reallocate services in preparation for LRT. It was terrible. They cut through a freaking park for this. An area of the city that was designated for the protection of its environment and the enjoyment of people was razed through despite the protest of residents. Maybe the road was absolutely necessary and there was nowhere else to put it, but dammit, it’s a bad look when you have to do something like that.

How many trees will they have to cut down in Green Timbers Urban Forest for the SkyTrain?

[WarrenC12]

Is everybody ignoring where the extra Billion dollars will come from? I don't get it. Did we forget the last ~10 year struggle to get funding for what was proposed?

I support Skytrain, and I'm glad LRT won't be built. I don't see how a business case of a line to Langley beats out Skytrain to UBC, Gondola to SFU, Rail transit on the North Shore, or a dozen other pet projects.

There's hardly any ridership. This will be worse that the M-Line was in 2001.

[ronthecivil]

Originally Posted by BirchTrain

I've been seeing posts by people saying that SkyTrain to Langley would mostly benefit Langley. One such comment said something along the lines of "benefit would be 80% Langley, 20% Surrey." Someone please enlighten me on how that works. From what I and every sane person sees, most of the extension would be in Surrey. No extension out to Aldergrove, just to Downtown Langley City.

Yes, Langley would benefit tremendously from SkyTrain, but so would people who live along Fraser Highway in Surrey and the ones who live along future feeder bus lines if the extension is built. Rapid transit not only serves the people who live near it, but also people who live a distance away. They get to connect to the regional rail network too.

The argument appears to be that the terminuses get development, while the stations in the middle are left out. One just needs to look at the original SkyTrain line. Yes, New West has lots of development, and downtown Vancouver is downtown, but look at Metrotown and Joyce. 2 stations smack dab in the middle of the Expo Line that have serious development and densification. Brentwood, in the middle of the M-Line, also has the same thing happening. So does Oakridge and Marine Drive. The argument is simply false.

Heck, a skytrain line out to Langley will benefit NORTH DELTA! Why? It takes a bunch of people that would be drivign through it to get to the Alex Fraser and puts them on a train. Any town that has regional commuters go through it benefits from skytrain expansion, even if they don't realise it.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't see how a business case of a line to Langley beats out Skytrain to UBC, Gondola to SFU, Rail transit on the North Shore, or a dozen other pet projects.

Nothing beats out skytrain to UBC. Not by a long-shot. I'm willing to bet that the Mayor's council will eventually redirect the LRT funds from Surrey to help pay for the extension out to UBC, and that Surrey will agree to this so long as the Mayor of Vancouver is willing to support Skytrain in Surrey. I already called the LRT getting scrapped, years ago and I have a feeling that the Vancouver and Surrey mayors are playing a little game of "scratch my back and I'll scratch your's".

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

There's hardly any ridership. This will be worse that the M-Line was in 2001.

Potential ridership is a very fragile crutch to lean on here. They speculated the same thing about the Canada Line, and look at what happened. They said rider-ship was poor on the Millennium line and it has been increasing year by year (as far as I know, someone can correct me if I'm wrong), and I'm not even going to get into how it will increase once it extends out west. The entire Skytrain model has always been about building for the future. This is a project that addresses the needs of the Lower Mainland's second largest city (by population) and it connects both of the largest cities seamlessly. Does induced demand ring any bells here?

Not only that but there is also a B-line bus (if I remember correctly) that will be introduced in 2019 that goes down Fraser Valley. So if you are looking for ridership specifically, you'll have to wait until we get the data from that new route .

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

There's hardly any ridership. This will be worse that the M-Line was in 2001.

Didn't the haters say the exact same thing about the Canada and the Evergreen? I don't see any difference with the Expo.

Regarding cost, we were given $1.7 billion for the Phase 2 Newton-Guildford tram, and promised however much more it would take for Phase 3 to Langley (estimated at $1.95 billion at the latest). That's $3.6B+ as opposed to the $2.9B for SkyTrain and BRT. All the funding is guaranteed, it's just that Phase 2 will stop at Fleetwood and continue to Langley in Phase 3.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by ronthecivil

Heck, a skytrain line out to Langley will benefit NORTH DELTA! Why? It takes a bunch of people that would be drivign through it to get to the Alex Fraser and puts them on a train. Any town that has regional commuters go through it benefits from skytrain expansion, even if they don't realise it.

Most commuters from Langley either stay in Langley or commute to Surrey. Only a small fraction of commuters from Langley cross the Fraser. Same with Surrey commuters, most Surrey commuters stay within Surrey. Only about 25% go across the Fraser (and that's total commuters, which includes people who currently take transit).