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  #6541  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2018, 6:00 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I disagree with anybody who argues that the province must spend $0 on cultural or recreational facilities until we all come to an agreement that nothing more can be spent on health care. It's not even sure that more money is the solution to the health care woes that exist, or that any number of dollars will make everyone perfectly happy about health care.
Yup, typical BS from the anti stadium lobby. So until we feed the hungry, clothe the homeless, re-pave the roads, build a thousand new hospitals and schools, we should never have libraries, museums, theatres, arenas, and, oh yeah, new stadiums, or just one decent stadium for all of Nova Scotia.
     
     
  #6542  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2018, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Phalanx View Post
Because it's a prominent location and it's a chance to improve things. Why constantly expect or accept low standards?
So the drawing I posted on the previous page, if it is close to what might come to pass, in your opinion is that low standards? Or is it just not enough information like everything else so far?
     
     
  #6543  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2018, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by stephan.richard View Post
What the City of Halifax is reach out to all the Maritime provinces to pitch the idea of helping out on the financing of the Stadium. And as I said in an earlier post the CFL team should be s maritime team. And I hope the Halifax stadium could be modeled like Mosaic Stadium here in Regina.
Just a couple of points, the ownership group has already had talks with officials in NB but it is a big ask to get support for building this stadium. For the stadium to be anywhere near profitable, the biggest stakeholders will have to be the local community (which is why I am pitching an affordable 22k indoor facility)

Despite what some have said they will be the Maritime's team. The owners have made no secret of this and mentioned it numerous times. They are hoping for a large amount of support outside the HRM. Having lived in all three provinces I believe the support will be there. Maybe not in great stadium attendance numbers but TV viewing and merchandising.
     
     
  #6544  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2018, 7:05 PM
terrynorthend terrynorthend is offline
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Yes, there's lots of room. It's a vast wasteland. But we would want people to go there. That's not the spot for that.
I agree. If they are going to torpedo Halterm anyways, I'd rather see this kind of cultural/entertainment park there.
     
     
  #6545  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2018, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Just a couple of points, the ownership group has already had talks with officials in NB but it is a big ask to get support for building this stadium. For the stadium to be anywhere near profitable, the biggest stakeholders will have to be the local community (which is why I am pitching an affordable 22k indoor facility)

Despite what some have said they will be the Maritime's team. The owners have made no secret of this and mentioned it numerous times. They are hoping for a large amount of support outside the HRM. Having lived in all three provinces I believe the support will be there. Maybe not in great stadium attendance numbers but TV viewing and merchandising.
If the team can be well marketed and good maritime representation done it will be a success. Here in Regina the Roughriders host their training camp in Saskatoon. But as far as stadium size to make it feasible I would see a 29-30k seat stadium. Also what makes Mosaic Stadium in Regina the Cadillac it was designed for the fan in mind. You can walk all around the main concourse. The concourse is wide there are plenty of concessions and plenty of beer. But with good prices a good transit plan and a great fan experience will be the success of the franchise. Here in Regina I am shocked on the amount of rider merchandise fly out of the stadium on game days and to see the sea of green shocks me. There is real good pride in the team here we have over 25000 season ticket holders, and nay fan can become an owner with purchasing shares in the team at 250$ a piece.
     
     
  #6546  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 1:38 AM
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If the team can be well marketed and good maritime representation done it will be a success. But as far as stadium size to make it feasible I would see a 29-30k seat stadium.
That would be lovely but it's waaay too much. Too costly and unlikely to be filled. Will be difficult enough to get 22k on a regular basis. With the advent of the TSN TV contract a CFL team needs 18k to break even. If a Maritime team could draw over 25k that would be success beyond the wildest dreams, even I'm not that optimistic.
     
     
  #6547  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 2:51 AM
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That would be lovely but it's waaay too much. Too costly and unlikely to be filled. Will be difficult enough to get 22k on a regular basis. With the advent of the TSN TV contract a CFL team needs 18k to break even. If a Maritime team could draw over 25k that would be success beyond the wildest dreams, even I'm not that optimistic.
The Roughriders have over 25K season tickets sold before each season. But for the maritime team to be successful they would need at least 11-12k season ticket holders in the first season. So at a stadium of 23-28k seats would be viable.

But the question is ticket pricing will need to be affordable.
Here for the Roughriders here are the ticket prices for this year:
- 33.00 to 100.00(Regular game)
- 41.00 to 117.00 (Labour Day Classic)
- 140.00 to 200.00 (Club Seats)
- 270.00 (Loge)
- 300.00 (Dream Deck)
- 225.00 to 410 (Suite)
- 320.00 to 355.00 (AGT Suites)

Plus we have an army of volunteers named the Riders Squad and we take care of various in game roles like ticket scanners, Ushers, guest services as well as guides to help fans to their sections and pre-game attendants to the party in the park before the game.
     
     
  #6548  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 3:19 PM
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I agree. I don't think any renderings or design plans for the new stadium have been released to the public.

It seems premature to me to argue that this is going to fall below whatever design standard we want for Shannon Park before we even know what it will look like.

Is the Wanderers Ground stadium an eyesore? It cost a lot less per seat than the proposed Shannon Park stadium will.
I'm not making the assumption that it will, I'm trying to make the argument that if it's going to be done, it SHOULD be done right, and that exterior aesthetics matter given the location.

I am, however skeptical that it will be given the size of the market and likely budget that it will be. I don't think it's irrational to look at what other cities have done with a bigger population/budget/fanbase and use it as a base of reference for what to expect. Nothing would make me happier than to have those concerns invalidated... but until there are renderings, the only thing we actually have to go on is comparisons to other markets.

Just because people have concerns doens't make them haters or detractors or whatever. The super polarizing language used by people on both sides here makes it very difficult to actually discuss this stuff openly.
     
     
  #6549  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 3:42 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by Phalanx View Post
Just because people have concerns doens't make them haters or detractors or whatever. The super polarizing language used by people on both sides here makes it very difficult to actually discuss this stuff openly.
You mean like "Why constantly expect or accept low standards?" No one here said that nor expects or wants that. You said that.

Discuss it openly, but if you have an agenda based upon made up conjectures (because we don't know anything about the project yet), expect some pushback.
     
     
  #6550  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 3:48 PM
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Sorry for the cross post but I think people in this thread should see this informative article from 2011.

This offers some good information on the issues that drive a franchise and stadium and why certain decisions are made.

Mitchell answers questions
Steve Milton Hamilton Spectator Sept 01 2011

At first blush, it all seems counter intuitive.

How can building new stands on the north side of Ivor Wynne Stadium not cost more than renovating the current ones?

And how can the significantly reduced seating capacity — from the original 25,000 seats to a reported 22,500 — not negatively impact the Hamilton Tiger-Cats’ bottom line?

Those were among the nagging questions after it was revealed last week that plans for the Pan Am Stadium on the current site of Ivor Wynne now call for the entire north stands to be torn down and rebuilt, instead of being refurbished atop the current infrastructure.

“This is absolutely and positively the most cost-efficient and responsible decision,” Ticat president Scott Mitchell answered Wednesday. “This isn’t a good thing, it’s a great thing.”

By agreeing to the reduced seat inventory, the Ticats made a major concession to Infrastructure Ontario to keep construction costs at the original estimate.

And, Mitchell says, potential builders will welcome the idea of constructing the north stands from the ground up, rather than trying to work around existing flaws, many of which are major.

“That’s 100 per cent accurate,” Mitchell said. “This creates cost certainty in the construction phase. You never know what you’re going to find out when you renovate. It might have involved all kinds of (capital) expense that wasn’t anticipated. And this prohibits the city from potentially having to spend tens of millions of dollars in maintenance of the north stands in the next few years.”

Additionally, having renovated north stands with uncomfortable bench seating and the same washroom and concession facilities as in the past would have meant that the Cats, and the city, were going to operate, in effect, two different facilities.

“What was clearly emerging was a have-versus-have-not scenario on the two sides of the stadium,” he said. “And that’s not conducive to effective cost management or a good in-stadium experience.”

The Tiger-Cats need to derive $10 million per year, or roughly $1 million per game, from ticket sales. Mitchell, bound by a confidentiality clause, would not comment on the exact capacity of the new stadium. But assuming the 22,500 figure is accurate, at an average $50 per ticket, the Cats will cover the $10 million as long as they sell out most games.

And a smaller stadium actually helps dramatically with that. Increasing the demand for tickets because there is a limited supply should translate into more season ticket holders than the current number, estimated to be slightly under 15,000. The Chicago Cubs and Boston Red Sox have always operated that way because of their old, small stadiums, but in 1990 the Baltimore Orioles became the first professional sports team to deliberately build a new stadium smaller than their old one. That forces fans to buy season’s tickets for fear that they won’t be able to get the tickets for games they really want. Then, weather and the competitive state of the team don’t affect sales as profoundly. The Montreal Alouettes had the same situation with the 20,000-seat Molson Stadium, and sold out every game for years.

The Ticats average between 23,000 and 24,000 spectators per game but about 20 per cent of them enjoy complimentary tickets, significantly lower than the figure from three years ago but still nearly double the industry standard. Tightening up on contra (tickets instead of cash, paid for services) and special group sales will allow the Cats to realize full income from a far greater percentage of the seats.

“So the biggest casualty in the capacity reduction will be those contra deals and big corporate buys,” Mitchell said.

The break-even point for most CFL teams is believed to be about $15 million in total annual income. With recent huge increases in TV viewership, broadcast revenues are expected to double or triple in the next couple of years, taking a big bite out of the $5 million income required beyond ticket sales. While the number of high-rent corporate boxes and club seats slated for the new stadium have not been revealed, there are going to be at least twice as many as there are now, adding more income potential to the Cats’ balance sheet.

“And clearly, we’ll have major increased revenue from concessions and merchandising because of an enhanced stadium experience,” Mitchell says. “It will also be a better experience for our corporate partners.”

The Ticats plan to cap individual season ticket sales at between 17,000 and 18,000. Season’s tickets prices for 2011 range from $14 per game in the end zone to $160 for the box seats at midfield. Those prices are expected to rise by two per cent next year.

But the team announced Wednesday that season’s tickets for 2012, the last season at Ivor Wynne, would cost the same as tickets for 2014, the first season in the new stadium.

“We wanted to nip in the bud all the talk that ‘I won’t be able to go to the new stadium because I can’t afford it,’” Mitchell explained.

Mitchell also said that the $1.3 million rent the Cats will pay the city in the new stadium will be the highest in the CFL and that the more income the club makes, the more the city will make on their rake-off of the profit, over and above the rental agreement.

And, he says, the seating capacity on opening day doesn’t have to remain that way. He wouldn’t comment directly, but the configuration of the new stadium has to include room for enough temporary seating to reach the 40,000 minimum required to play host to a Grey Cup Game.

“Infrastructure Ontario will deliver a great stadium, but obviously there’d be nothing stopping us, as far as far as post-Pan Am Games go, from adding more seating ourselves.”
     
     
  #6551  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 3:49 PM
Phalanx Phalanx is offline
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
You mean like "Why constantly expect or accept low standards?" No one here said that nor expects or wants that. You said that.

Discuss it openly, but if you have an agenda based upon made up conjectures (because we don't know anything about the project yet), expect some pushback.
I HAVE NO AGENDA BEYOND WANTING SOMETHING AESTHETICALLY PLEASING IN A VERY VISIBLE LOCATION

Apparently I have to 'shout' to make this clear.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're trying to shut down any form of discussion by framing it as some sort of partisan bias.
     
     
  #6552  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Phalanx View Post
I HAVE NO AGENDA BEYOND WANTING SOMETHING AESTHETICALLY PLEASING IN A VERY VISIBLE LOCATION This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're trying to shut down any form of discussion by framing it as some sort of partisan bias.
Exactly who would want a crappy looking stadium?

Sure smart design and designers will help but I've been following this stuff for decades and I don't think too many people (aside from general moaners) have been too displeased with what has happened in Canada and the bang for the buck we have gotten with the amount of money spent. IGF and Mosaic are phenomenal facilities for the cost.

I don't think anyone needs worry about shutting you down.
     
     
  #6553  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 6:26 PM
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I freely admit I am out of touch on this subject, but if a team needs ticket revenue of $1 million per game to be viable and that means $50 average tickets, I am dubious whether there are 20,000+ souls willing to fork that over 10 times a year in HRM to watch the CFL.
     
     
  #6554  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 6:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
I freely admit I am out of touch on this subject, but if a team needs ticket revenue of $1 million per game to be viable and that means $50 average tickets, I am dubious whether there are 20,000+ souls willing to fork that over 10 times a year in HRM to watch the CFL.
That article was two years before the lucrative TSN TV contract which pretty much covers the salary cap. So that leaves as additional revenues the gate, sponsorships, advertising, in-stadiums sales etc. 20k spectators at $40 dollars a ticket gives 7.2 million, plus add in the above other sources of revenue.

Last edited by elly63; Nov 5, 2018 at 11:09 PM.
     
     
  #6555  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
You mean like "Why constantly expect or accept low standards?" No one here said that nor expects or wants that.
I think it's a fair question, actually, especially given the industrial appearance of the north end of the harbour. Do we want a new stadium to be of the same aesthetic level of the Irving shipbuilding plant or Tuft's Cove generating plant? That would, in my opinion, be expecting and/or accepting low standards.

Phalanx's question is on the money in that being on the waterfront and not being 'industrial' it should elevate the level of architecture and set a new standard for new structures in the area. Someday, when/if the industrial structures go away (as they did in the downtown area of the harbour), then you don't want the stadium to be an eyesore that everybody points to as bringing down the look of the waterfront.

I know that's not what you're suggesting or expecting, but I don't think it's unreasonable to put it out there as a concern.

And to be clear... I'm not anti-stadium, but I want to see a quality structure and a viable business model. I want to see it succeed and be a source of pride for Halifax - what's wrong with that?
     
     
  #6556  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 10:52 PM
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I know that's not what you're suggesting or expecting, but I don't think it's unreasonable to put it out there as a concern.

And to be clear... I'm not anti-stadium, but I want to see a quality structure and a viable business model. I want to see it succeed and be a source of pride for Halifax - what's wrong with that?
There's nothing wrong with that, that's what everyone wants.

Phalanx's post suggested that there were low expectations and both someone123 and I took exception to that especially when there's been ZERO information out there. His second post seemed to change his opinion but regardless, some of the people here are going to have to temper their expectations unless they support this project getting up around the 300 million mark.

If people only want to spend 170 million you may have to expect something along the lines of THF, personally I'm fine with that, and if people want to spend 300 million for something more aesthetically pleasing I'm fine with that too. My rationale is you should be able to get a pretty decent 22k stadium (plus 2k standing room) for 200 million.
     
     
  #6557  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2018, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I know that's not what you're suggesting or expecting, but I don't think it's unreasonable to put it out there as a concern.

And to be clear... I'm not anti-stadium, but I want to see a quality structure and a viable business model. I want to see it succeed and be a source of pride for Halifax - what's wrong with that?
There's nothing wrong with that, that's what everyone wants.

Phalanx's post suggested that there were low expectations and both someone123 and I took exception to that especially when there's been ZERO information out there. His second post seemed to change his opinion but regardless, some of the people here are going to have to temper their expectations unless they support this project getting up around the 300 million mark.

Not that we can make direct comparisons, but just a few things to throw out there, Winnipeg's stadium had 10k more seats and a 30 million roof and came in around 200 million. So if a roof is going to raise the price say 20-30 million, how do people fell about that. Roof or no roof?
     
     
  #6558  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2018, 2:57 AM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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As Councillor Tim Outhit said to Dube 'Who is holding the debt ?'
Dube didn't have an answer.
     
     
  #6559  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2018, 4:03 AM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Phalanx's post suggested that there were low expectations and both someone123 and I took exception to that especially when there's been ZERO information out there. His second post seemed to change his opinion but regardless, some of the people here are going to have to temper their expectations unless they support this project getting up around the 300 million mark.
Please go back and re-read what I said and what I was responding to. You're creating a context that was never there.

To recap:
- I explained why I had concerns about the design quality of any potential stadium. I only ever implied that I wanted something well designed. You seemed to take it as a personal slight even though it was a general critique of current CFL venues. I gave several actual examples of my concerns in response to your post. I was just answering kind-for-kind.

- Someone123 thought that it was 'weird' to expect some kind of standards given the industrial nature of the north Dartmouth waterfront (in other words, implying that we should not expect higher standards), my response asking why we should lower our standards was directly in response to this.

You're waaaaay out of line here. You're taking anything that isn't outright support as some kind of attack. I would be happy to have a stadium, you can look back through years of stadium posts to see as much. I don't comment often, but I've never said we shouldn't have one. I'd just rather have it done 'right' because it's a big investment and something that will be around for decades.
     
     
  #6560  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2018, 5:50 AM
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Someone123 thought that it was 'weird' to expect some kind of standards given the industrial nature of the north Dartmouth waterfront (in other words, implying that we should not expect higher standards), my response asking why we should lower our standards was directly in response to this.
There's no design released to the public yet though so any comments on the design are extremely speculative and we can't say if they represent a raising or lowering of design standards with respect to buildings in the city.

I don't agree that the CFL stadiums are all or mostly ugly. I think the industrial look of North End Dartmouth is interesting and a stadium like the one in Hamilton would complement the area. Ultimately this is subjective and reasonable people might disagree on what looks good. I think the open air stadiums tend to look nicer than all but the most gold plated stadiums with fixed or retractable roofs, so the lower budget for the Halifax stadium might not be a bad thing.

On top of this I think it's important to make a distinction between abstract "standards" for accepting somebody else's design and standards of actual construction. High standards are only impressive to the extent that they apply to actual buildings. It's not impressive to have a weedy lot that remains empty because no proposal was perfect enough for it. I would also draw a distinction between constructive and unconstructive criticism of design standards (suggestions or identification of deficiencies versus pot shots). It's hard to constructively criticize a design that does not exist yet.
     
     
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