The Great Canadian Transit Thread - Page 573

Coldrsx · #**11441** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 1:21 PM**

https://shawglobalnews.files.wordpress.c...x%2C0px%2C674px%2C449px&resize=720%2C480

https://cdn.skyrisecities.com/forum/attachments/old-meets-new-lrt-1024x614-jpg.64558/

https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_plans/transit/valley-line-west.aspx

Coldrsx · #**11442** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 1:39 PM**

Included with this announcement is also a short addition for the Metro-line north into Blatchford, as well as a permanent NAIT station.

scryer · #**11443** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 4:22 PM**

Not a fan of LRT in Edmonton.

They could have redirected the funds so that it focuses on grade separation on the current system.

Coldrsx · #**11444** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 6:22 PM**

Disagree.

MalcolmTucker · #**11445** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 6:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scryer

Not a fan of LRT in Edmonton.

They could have redirected the funds so that it focuses on grade separation on the current system.

It works for Edmonton. There really isn't a corridor that naturally needs higher throughput offered by a higher order system than what is currently proposed/being built. Building out the network is the priority on this one. It is more akin to Ottawa's BRT projects from decades ago than the higher order system they are upgrading it to today.

240glt · #**11446** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 6:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

It works for Edmonton. There really isn't a corridor that naturally needs higher throughput offered by a higher order system than what is currently proposed/being built. Building out the network is the priority on this one. It is more akin to Ottawa's BRT projects from decades ago than the higher order system they are upgrading it to today.

I'd agree with the caveat that critical intersections need to be dealt with a lot smarter. The last two legs both created major traffic issues and at some point they'll have to rip out the 1t1th ave crossing and totally re-do it.

The Metro line was such a disaster, poorly planned & designed, tendered and managed and still not working properly to this day that you hear a lot of people very skeptical about future LRT projects. There is a lot of grade separation on the SE line which is great and there will be on the west leg as well. I really hope this next phase turns out much better than the last one. By all accounts it should but we shall see.

Coldrsx · #**11447** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 6:37 PM**

It literally cannot be any worse.

FFX-ME · #**11448** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 9:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

It works for Edmonton. There really isn't a corridor that naturally needs higher throughput offered by a higher order system than what is currently proposed/being built. Building out the network is the priority on this one. It is more akin to Ottawa's BRT projects from decades ago than the higher order system they are upgrading it to today.

That is just plain false. Ottawa, unlike most cities these days, actually built real BRT. It was completely grade separated with the exception of the downtown core. This LRT approach is much more inferior and will be near impossible to "upgrade" at a later date. You'd basically need to start from scratch, get completely new rails, new ROWs, etc.

MalcolmTucker · #**11449** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 10:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

That is just plain false. Ottawa, unlike most cities these days, actually built real BRT. It was completely grade separated with the exception of the downtown core. This LRT approach is much more inferior and will be near impossible to "upgrade" at a later date. You'd basically need to start from scratch, get completely new rails, new ROWs, etc.

I think you've focused in on the technical side here rather than the reasons they are doing what they are doing. In the level of investment required, and focusing on coverage, yeah. They are making compromises just like the choice of BRT in Ottawa. Edmonton went the other direction first, and it didn't really work out for them. They built a tunnel with a similar capacity to Ottawa's new tunnel decades ago, but they weren't ever able to build the ridership to fill it because they couldn't afford to go far and wide with coverage.

Reecemartin · #**11450** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 11:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One

That is too bad to hear. So at grade through downtown?

If you have a walkable pedestrian-oriented Downtown then you don't need to bury the trains, and better yet it adds more people onto the streets which helps improve the liveliness of Downtown along with improving safety late at night.

The Valley Line has been fairly well planned to have very strategic grade separations and park and rides, its probably going to serve the widest range of use cases of anything in Canada.

milomilo · #**11451** Posted **Nov 2, 2018, 11:24 PM**

If you have a walkable downtown, why would you ruin it by putting a railway through it? Compare 7th Ave in Calgary to 8th Ave and see which is the better pedestrian experience. This lie that railway tracks increase walkability needs to stop. The only reason to put LRT at grade is that it is cheaper, end of.

Metro-One · #**11452** Posted **Nov 3, 2018, 1:18 AM**

Yeah, please explain how frequently running large vehicles at grade through an area is a positive for walkability and the pedestrian experience? And how exactly does it make things safer? Aren’t people driving by in cars also “safe” in this at grade nature?

Do people actually believe this developer marketing nonsense that at grade transit magically makes people want to be downtown??

I have never heard anyone use these arguments for buses, which really seems that given their at grade transit nature should also apply...

All I can say is that with this addition Edmonton will probably have the worst designed mass transit system in Canada.

Calgary’s on the flip side will be getting better.

So happy Vancouver will be getting another subway along Broadway and not some at grade LRT...

Doady · #**11453** Posted **Nov 3, 2018, 1:39 AM**

The reason for grade separated rail is so the trains don't interfere with the streets including cars and pedestrians. As at-grade trains become longer and more frequent, they block other traffic more and more. You can see GO Train system increasingly becoming grade separated. Grade separation is just to increase the capacity of the system.

When Calgary started building its at-grade LRT, it was much smaller and had much fewer riders than Edmonton does today. Calgary today is using 4-car trains and every 2-3 minutes in each direction in downtown. How much more capacity can they add? Calgary's LRT needs grade separation today, but Edmonton is going in the opposite direction. Edmonton built a grade-separated system at the wrong time and now it is building an at-grade system at the wrong time.

Innsertnamehere · #**11454** Posted **Nov 3, 2018, 4:03 AM**

GO transit is really going to be under separated when RER is up and running.

RER is going to see trains passing through crossings like every 5 minutes during rush hour. Many parts of the network still have dozens of high traffic at grade crossings, too.

It really makes me appreciate the Georgetown South project and it's insistence on complete grade separation. RER's budget for only 10 grade separations is woefully inadequate - it probably should have been more like 30-40.

lrt's friend · #**11455** Posted **Nov 3, 2018, 4:19 AM**

Street railways are incompatible with regular traffic. This has been true since cars became popular in the 1920s. This is why most streetcar networks disappeared. The trend to even longer streetcars and multi-car trains are even more incompatible with regular traffic and pedestrians.

swimmer_spe · #**11456** Posted **Nov 3, 2018, 4:48 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Street railways are incompatible with regular traffic. This has been true since cars became popular in the 1920s. This is why most streetcar networks disappeared. The trend to even longer streetcars and multi-car trains are even more incompatible with regular traffic and pedestrians.

Actually, personal motor vehicles are incompatible with streetcars, and to a lesser extent buses. That is why streetcar networks were not maintained and left to become obsolete. Even here in Sudbury, we had a streetcar network. At the time, they simply did not due the necessary maintenance to keep the lines running. Then the cost to repair them is more than the cost of buses.

Riders of transit do not vote as much as owners of personal motor vehicles do.

lrt's friend · #**11457** Posted **Nov 3, 2018, 5:07 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Actually, personal motor vehicles are incompatible with streetcars, and to a lesser extent buses. That is why streetcar networks were not maintained and left to become obsolete. Even here in Sudbury, we had a streetcar network. At the time, they simply did not due the necessary maintenance to keep the lines running. Then the cost to repair them is more than the cost of buses.

Riders of transit do not vote as much as owners of personal motor vehicles do.

This was a factor of the Great Depression followed by overuse and supplies shortages during the war years. Also modern buses began to appear after the war that had similar capacities as streetcars. It is hard to believe now, but diesel buses were considered to be the 'new' technology at the time.

swimmer_spe · #**11458** Posted **Nov 3, 2018, 5:13 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This was a factor of the Great Depression followed by overuse and supplies shortages during the war years. Also modern buses began to appear after the war that had similar capacities as streetcars. It is hard to believe now, but diesel buses were considered to be the 'new' technology at the time.

That is very true. Just imagine the network we would have today.

J.OT13 · #**11459** Posted **Nov 3, 2018, 12:48 PM**

As Doady said, Calgary and Edmonton seem to be basing their decisions on their own "lessons learned".

Calgary built at grade downtown when the system was started which allowed them to invest in wide spread system expansions throughout the years and now, they've decided to go the grade separated route on the Green Line (mostly downtown, but not the entire system).

Edmonton invested all of their money in the tunnel for its first line, extending that tunnel one station at a time for 15 years in the 80s and early 90s before starting further surface expansions in the 00s and 10s. Yes, the Metro Line is a disaster, but Coldrsx pointed out, it was an extension of a system that was meant for grade-seperation using high-floor vehicles. The low-floor models on the Valley Line should prevent many of the issues we are seeing on the Metro Line.

In Ottawa, we built the tunnel downtown because of our ridership demanded it. The downtown section of the Transitway has been overcapacity for 10-20 years, so the tunnel was absolutely necessary. In response to a deadly bus-train (OC-VIA) crash at a Transitway intersection in 2013 that killed 6 people and injured dozens more, all on the double-decker bus, the City has decided to stick with grade separation throughout the O-Train system.

That said, I agree should have gone with a tunnel downtown, but based on past experiences, there might not been the political will to go that route after the slow expansion of the first line.

J.OT13 · #**11460** Posted **Nov 3, 2018, 12:59 PM**

Update on the Confederation Line, we are seeing the "O" beacons going up at station entrances, including the one below at Lyon's west entrance. AFAIK it is the first downtown. They're easily seen from blocks away. That is something that seems to be missing in Montréal, where the "Metro" sign is quite iconic, but often flat on the entrance and sometimes get lost in the urban landscape. With so many Metro stations downtown, it sometimes hard to find an entrance. I can't speak for other cities because I haven't had the chance to visit.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-confederation-line-lrt-progress-photos-1.4870615

Here we have the upper concourse of Lyon's east entrance. The ramp on the right side of the stairs and escalator is the entrance to the Place de Ville complex.

https://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/news/construction-update-198/

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-confederation-line-lrt-progress-photos-1.4870615