Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Colin May]

'This project is dead'
'No it's not. It's resting'
'It is deceased. Gone to meet its maker. No longer with us'
With apologies to Monty Python.
If LeBlanc et al are not putting money into construction and HRM is not putting money into construction and the province isn't putting money into construction and the feds aren't putting money into construction I can only conclude that this 'parrot' isn't dead, it was just not conceived.
It was really just a mirage.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JHikka

One location is better suited to handle multiple modes of transport. The other is in a power centre.

Multiple modes? It is very difficult to bike there for the handful of zealots so inclined. Nobody lives nearby so walking it out. Bus and ferry are both dependent upon Halifax Transit, so you know how well that is going to work. Not very.

People are going to drive.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Multiple modes? It is very difficult to bike there for the handful of zealots so inclined. Nobody lives nearby so walking it out. Bus and ferry are both dependent upon Halifax Transit, so you know how well that is going to work. Not very.

People are going to drive.

People are going to drive for CFL games, yes. How are people going to be travelling for SMU/DAL games (if they happen), for concerts (if they happen), for other sporting events (if they happen)? Those events are going to be less dependent on vehicles and more dependent on other forms of transportation.

Shannon Park is near a bridge, near Dartmouth Downtown, and closer to the Peninsula than DC is. Unless you think all of your customers are coming from East Hants, or unless you actually need out-of-province visitors to make the stadium viable, I fail to see how Shannon is a worse decision transportation-wise than DC.

The ancillary benefits of nearby development in Dartmouth also far outweigh those at DC, as well, which is where municipal financing of sports stadiums can actually see some ROI. Building at DC gets you another big box store or two maybe; building at Shannon allows for nearby residential areas to densify and beef up as infrastructure and nearby amenities improve. People want to live/work near urban stadiums - they don't want to live in or near power centres (because they're built and designed for people in cars to get in and out of, not for residents).

Again, I hate harping on this, but Ottawa is a prime example of this. The arena in Kanata has done nothing for surrounding development (car dealerships) whereas the stadium at Lansdowne has boosted development in the Glebe and nearby urban areas. The latter is happening because it's in a (more) central area and more accessible to users. Edmonton is seeing spinoffs of their new urban arena, Moncton is seeing spinoffs from its new urban arena, and Dartmouth can see spinoffs from it's (almost) urban stadium in Shannon.

The more people and things you have near a stadium (that aren't big box stores) the more likely you are to be able to fill it for events and shows.

[Dartguard]

Being a resident of Ottawa I wonder if you have had any experience getting around DC or Burnside. DC most assuredly has far more options to get into and out of compared to Shannon park. I suspect that Shannon is being considered for some Social justice and experimental reasons as opposed to say coming close to the Redblacks situation off Bank Street.

If a Stadium could be built close to the already set up infrastructure in DC just to the west and above the Costco then that would come the closest to the Bank street set up. I suspect that if that site was discussed with the owners of DC it did not go well. Our Mayor has a soft spot for Shannon and is probably hoping, wishing ,praying and cajoling to have First Nations funds, Fed money for Transit, and HRM money because he is the mayor to set up Shannon as the shining Stadium by the Sea.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

DC most assuredly has far more options to get into and out of compared to Shannon park.

This isn't a good way to look at it though. There would be smaller bottlenecks around the stadium in Dartmouth Crossing, and bottlenecks just in the parking lot itself. Meanwhile even the highway onramps tend to be a single lane. It is not true at all that you can presume there will be no traffic hiccups as long as there are some arterials and highways nearby somewhere.

IKEA has a couple ways in an out but it's essentially constrainted by Wright Ave, which is 2 lanes each way at its narrowest part. It is only marginally different from Windmill Road. This type of setup would be awful for a stadium where ~100% of the 24,000 people are trying to leave ASAP in vehicles. To get people out of there quicker you need a mix of different ways to go and a mix of transportation options so that each road is carrying one quarter of one half of the traffic.

Shannon Park may actually be superior road-wise in that it's closer to a blank slate and there are a bunch of possibilities for connections. There is direct access to the MacKay/Hwy 111 and Windmill Road, and maybe there could be an extension to Victoria Road. And it is a better site than DC in every other way.

[someone123]

It's also worth mentioning that highways are not significantly higher throughput than surface streets.

Nobody believes this because you can go faster on a highway. However, cars need to leave 2 seconds for human reaction and stopping distance (if they are closer together there tend to be accidents and average throughput goes down, not up!). In heavy congestion after a football game this means 1 car every 2 seconds on a lane of a surface street and 1 car every 2 seconds on a lane of highway.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Being a resident of Ottawa I wonder if you have had any experience getting around DC or Burnside. DC most assuredly has far more options to get into and out of compared to Shannon park.

As someone who grew up in the Maritimes I have plenty of experience getting around DC and Burnside.

DC most assuredly has more roads and...that's about it? Just because a place has more roads doesn't mean it's easier to get to.

Originally Posted by Dartguard

If a Stadium could be built close to the already set up infrastructure in DC just to the west and above the Costco then that would come the closest to the Bank street set up.

I'm assuming you have limited experience in Ottawa if you're seriously suggesting this. Their infrastructure couldn't be any more different. Bank street through the Glebe is a single lane urban street with three-four storey mixed-used development both north and south of the stadium. Consistent transit with multiple routes. Bike lanes and pedestrian-only walkways on the Canal. Easy pedestrian access. Residential surrounds the stadium site. DC is...a power centre, with wide avenues, and open empty lots. The fact that it's even mentioned in the same breath as a Costco means it's in an area that is designed to shut out lower income participants (essentially Costco's entire model and target marketing).

Again, I should reiterate that there's probably going to be more people using the stadium than just people with cars. If 100% of the people going to the stadium are in a car there's never going to be enough roads to fit all of them without there being massive traffic issues. At least the Shannon site has some potential for diversifying transport options beyond just "more roads!!!"

I guess i'm going to have to go back and find the Lansdowne transportation reporting numbers again.

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Our Mayor has a soft spot for Shannon and is probably hoping, wishing ,praying and cajoling to have First Nations funds, Fed money for Transit, and HRM money because he is the mayor to set up Shannon as the shining Stadium by the Sea.

A stadium on the ocean sounds a lot more appealing than a stadium in a power centre surrounded by parking lots and big box stores.

I should probably note that i'm not too positive on any of the recommended sites for the stadium but to some degree an urban stadium simply isn't going to be feasible in Halifax unless things are removed/demolished. Wanderers Ground is probably the closest Halifax will get to a pure urban stadium in an urban setting with zero parking directly on site, easy pedestrian/active transportation potential, and a direct population base surrounding it.

Originally Posted by someone123

This type of setup would be awful for a stadium where ~100% of the 24,000 people are trying to leave ASAP in vehicles. To get people out of there quicker you need a mix of different ways to go and a mix of transportation options so that each road is carrying one quarter of one half of the traffic.

This is exactly the point i'm trying to make.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

This isn't a good way to look at it though. There would be smaller bottlenecks around the stadium in Dartmouth Crossing, and bottlenecks just in the parking lot itself. Meanwhile even the highway onramps tend to be a single lane. It is not true at all that you can presume there will be no traffic hiccups as long as there are some arterials and highways nearby somewhere.

IKEA has a couple ways in an out but it's essentially constrainted by Wright Ave, which is 2 lanes each way at its narrowest part. It is only marginally different from Windmill Road. This type of setup would be awful for a stadium where ~100% of the 24,000 people are trying to leave ASAP in vehicles. To get people out of there quicker you need a mix of different ways to go and a mix of transportation options so that each road is carrying one quarter of one half of the traffic.

Shannon Park may actually be superior road-wise in that it's closer to a blank slate and there are a bunch of possibilities for connections. There is direct access to the MacKay/Hwy 111 and Windmill Road, and maybe there could be an extension to Victoria Road. And it is a better site than DC in every other way.

I hate to disagree with you, but I disagree with you. There is no comparison whatsoever between the two in terms of roadway capacity and points of access. None. Now you may say that is this is done, and but for that thing... but if ifs and buts were... well, you know.

The point is that the SP site needs a huge amount of work merely to tie into the existing street network properly, and that street network itself is seriously undersized for volume traffic. It just is. That part of Dartmouth has been ignored for half a century. Contrast that to DC/Burnside where there is multi-lane capacity everywhere, all built fairly recently, and multiple access points, the main one handled by a well-designed interchange. It is made to handle high volumes of traffic. There really is no comparison between the two.

That aside, both CTV and the Herald reached out to Moshe Lander, a "sports economist" at Concordia. The Herald article sums up his thoughts:

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/l...pass-on-shannon-park-cfl-stadium-255433/

Moshe Lander, a Concordia University professor who specializes in the economics of sports and spends parts of his summers working at Dalhousie University, said he doesn’t see the attraction of Shannon Park.

“I know they are building it up but it doesn’t seem to me like it’s an inherently convenient access point from downtown Halifax,” Lander said. “It creates a bit of an old-fashioned lemming mentality where everybody drives out to the stadium and then everybody drives back when the game is done.

“It’s inherently not a place where people naturally collect. ... The idea of modern stadium design is that you kind of want to put it where people already are so that they have an incentive to use the stadium as kind of a broader experience. You go to the bar, you have a couple of drinks, then you go to the game.”

Lander said the financing model Dube described is a popular way to build arenas and stadiums but it is still a municipal subsidy.

“That’s a government subsidy, money that would have gone into government coffers for schools, roads, hospitals, what have you, and it’s money that now is going to be diverted into potentially a private enterprise to subsidize them for a stadium. When they say this is new money, OK, fine, it’s new money that could have been spent elsewhere or on other things. Giving it to a commercial enterprise that is a for-profit organization is a little hard for taxpayers to accept and deal with.”

Lander said promised economic potential of developments near the stadium will not be realized.

“The sooner they accept that, the sooner they can at least have a legitimate discussion about do you still want to go ahead with it anyway. Disposable income dollars are finite. I just can’t make up disposable income out of nowhere. For them to say in that proposal that is on the city council website that this is going to create $100-some-odd-million a year in economic activity, that is just totally wrong. If I decide that I want to flash out on CFL tickets, then that means I’m taking money away from spending down at the harbourfront. It’s not like it’s new disposable income. It’s not like I’m going to take on a second job to come up with CFL money. All it’s doing is displacing economic activity from one part of greater Halifax to another part of greater Halifax.”

[Phalanx]

Setting aside the infrastructure issue for a moment... If a stadium is built in Shannon Park, I hope there would be a fair amount of consideration put into visual appeal. It's a very prominent location and most CFL stadiums are extremely utilitarian.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's also worth mentioning that highways are not significantly higher throughput than surface streets.

Nobody believes this because you can go faster on a highway. However, cars need to leave 2 seconds for human reaction and stopping distance (if they are closer together there tend to be accidents and average throughput goes down, not up!). In heavy congestion after a football game this means 1 car every 2 seconds on a lane of a surface street and 1 car every 2 seconds on a lane of highway.

This is truth. All a highway does is get more cars to the parking lot entrance faster. They still need to find a space (>20kph) and park (5-0 kph) and parking rows don't have 4 lane access. It's single file. Witness the giant cluster flight that is gameday at Patriot Place in Boston.

[q12]

15,000 seat Metro Centre II Report from 2007:

http://www.tradecentrelimited.com/site-t..._Feasibility_Study_Volume_1_May_2007.pdf

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

... both CTV and the Herald reached out to Moshe Lander, a "sports economist" at Concordia. The Herald article sums up his thoughts:

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/l...pass-on-shannon-park-cfl-stadium-255433/

Moshe Lander, a Concordia University professor who specializes in the economics of sports and spends parts of his summers working at Dalhousie University, said he doesn’t see the attraction of Shannon Park... The idea of modern stadium design is that you kind of want to put it where people already are so that they have an incentive to use the stadium as kind of a broader experience. You go to the bar, you have a couple of drinks, then you go to the game...”

Based on this, I can't see an advantage for either site:
DC is a place people go to shop or see a movie and leave. It's not a hang-out and contribute to city life kind of place.

SP is a... well... nothing.

I think the problem with what's been described is that most places with healthy urban life don't tend to have big gaping holes large enough to accommodate a stadium. So, it's got to be placed immediately adjacent (I'd expect candidate sites CLOSE to good urban life would be lower income areas that are politically easier to bulldoze and displace residents without the power to make their voices heard). Neither SP nor DC have immediately adjacent hot spots either, unless I'm overlooking some vibrant beating pulse of street life.

[Colin May]

Nobody has said they want to spend money on a stadium.
Not LeBlanc
Not HRM
Not the province
Not the feds.
Not any combination of the four entities.

Read page 5 : https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default/fil...0Year%20ended%20March%2031%2C%202018.pdf

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by q12

15,000 seat Metro Centre II Report from 2007:

http://www.tradecentrelimited.com/site-t..._Feasibility_Study_Volume_1_May_2007.pdf

Wild. I have absolutely no recollection of this.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Wild. I have absolutely no recollection of this.

I had the same reaction, only vaguely remembering some talk of it.

One interesting part of the site locations from the feasibility study was the Trademart site above the Cogswell interchange, which will still be available after Cogswell's tear down and redesign.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Most CFL stadiums are extremely utilitarian.

Really?

[Colin May]

Nothing quite like the Tottenham Hotspur stadium, current estimate $1.5 billion Canadian
" Spurs’ plans to recoup the £850m construction costs include vaulting revenues from the 62,062-seat stadium itself and all its hospitality packages, two NFL games and six concerts a year, the “Tottenham Experience” visitors’ centre with Europe’s largest football club shop, a 180-bed hotel and 579 apartments in four blocks for which the club has planning permission. "
But the local residents abutting the development are somewhat less than excited
https://www.theguardian.com/football/201...tadium-redevelopment-haringey-neighbours

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Nothing quite like the Tottenham Hotspur stadium, current estimate $1.5 billion Canadian
" Spurs’ plans to recoup the £850m construction costs include vaulting revenues from the 62,062-seat stadium itself and all its hospitality packages, two NFL games and six concerts a year, the “Tottenham Experience” visitors’ centre with Europe’s largest football club shop, a 180-bed hotel and 579 apartments in four blocks for which the club has planning permission. "
But the local residents abutting the development are somewhat less than excited

And that has what to do with the CFL or Halifax or anything remotely relevant?

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by elly63

And that has what to do with the CFL or Halifax or anything remotely relevant?

That a stadium can be built by a sports franchise without trying to fool taxpayers into footing the bill for the next 3 decades.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Colin May

That a stadium can be built by a sports franchise without trying to fool taxpayers into footing the bill for the next 3 decades.

Yeah, because a soccer team worth well over a billion dollars is so comparable to what is going on in Halifax...