Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by elly63

Funny, very briefly funny. Not much substance.
Same goes for Leblanc on the Murphy interview.
Try reading a few financial statements, and start with the footnotes because the footnotes are where the real picture is disclosed. Skip the pages with the pretty pictures and the fancy graphs.
Leblanc looks and talks like a door-to-door vacuum salesman.

[Dartguard]

Now Elly behave, Colin is a man of researched reason.

A few points if I may . Who honestly thinks anyone would bike to a CFL game. Just not the demographic and unless the bike infrastructure is part of a larger regional plan that is shared use then why bother.( Keith quietly cheers). The Ferry option is interesting but so are the Harbour Hoppers and chartered Buses. I can see Local pubs and restaurants sponsoring event tickets with travel included to arrive back in DT after the game. A Brother in Law does the same type of excursion from Hamilton to Buffalo for NFL games. The Yanks tend to wave the buses through. Tailgating experiences may hold the potential to create a pre game event and post game delay in emptying the site .

DC is a better location for transportation options as per the points raised by other posters. Keep in mind that Burnside has approximately 15,000 employees coming and going every day whereas Shannon Park is hemmed in by Halifax Harbor, and one Main road. DC has far more options. I tend to agree with Keith on the politics of this and good old Mike has probably whispered the proper nothings to Ottawa, Stephen and our Indigenousness Friends. If we decide to spend Shannon it will be.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Now Elly behave, Colin is a man of researched reason.

A few points if I may . Who honestly thinks anyone would bike to a CFL game. Just not the demographic and unless the bike infrastructure is part of a larger regional plan that is shared use then why bother.( Keith quietly cheers). The Ferry option is interesting but so are the Harbour Hoppers and chartered Buses. I can see Local pubs and restaurants sponsoring event tickets with travel included to arrive back in DT after the game. A Brother in Law does the same type of excursion from Hamilton to Buffalo for NFL games. The Yanks tend to wave the buses through. Tailgating experiences may hold the potential to create a pre game event and post game delay in emptying the site .

DC is a better location for transportation options as per the points raised by other posters. Keep in mind that Burnside has approximately 15,000 employees coming and going every day whereas Shannon Park is hemmed in by Halifax Harbor, and one Main road. DC has far more options. I tend to agree with Keith on the politics of this and good old Mike has probably whispered the proper nothings to Ottawa, Stephen and our Indigenousness Friends. If we decide to spend Shannon it will be.

Mike seems to be all in on this project. A Senate seat in Nova Scotia becomes available in April 2020, or perhaps he thinks another term is almost assured.
I missed the part of the discussion where the Director of Finance was answering questions - the TV was muted and Her Majesty was telling me about the health of a friend.
And what is the net worth of LeBlanc or is he all horse and no cart ?

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This is very true. On game days, I could see some of the sightseeing tour boats advertising trips to the stadium site as charters.

How late into the season do the tourism operators run their boats? Would they consider extending their season on the weekends for the football crowd???

The regular boating season in Halifax is roughly May-October, which overlaps well with the CFL regular season. Outside of this a lot of floating docks (including public ones) are put into storage for the winter. Tour boat operators might be able to operate a bit later into the season if there's a demand for it since they can usually use higher fixed piers.

Ideally the design would incorporate a commercial jetty and a basic marina, the fixed jetty could be used by larger 20-300 passenger boats and the floating docks by private boats and water taxis. Larger boats could come in from Downtown, from Eastern Passage, and from Mill Cove in Bedford (and Alderney if there's a demand for it). Smaller boats can come in from the Northwest Arm, and there's a publicly (?) owned pier in Purcell's Cove that could be upgraded for commercial service if there was demand for it. The marina would basically act as a secondary parking lot and take a marginal amount of pressure off the street network entrance/exits, at least on days when the weather cooperates. There's also potential for pre/post-game parties on boats like the Harbour Queen or Theodore Tugboat, or the Bluenose for that matter.

If the (hypothetical) ferry terminal/marina and larger Shannon Park site are integrated well into the surrounding area, this also opens the door for options like BIO workers boating to work in nice weather, and the ferry could serve BIO and the Wallace Heights neighbourhood with express service into Burnside, along with whatever else gets built on the remainder of the Shannon Park lands. It could end up being an interesting hub, even at times when the stadium is not in use. There are also existing plans for a transit hub at Windmill/Wright so hopefully this could all tie together somehow.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Nicer perhaps in terms of ocean views but less so with the scenic view of the power plant and high-tension towers on the south side. Add in the chill off the harbour and it is not so nice except on a hot day.

The ferry idea is certainly going to be ballyhooed but it is really not going to make much difference. First of all it starts from downtown so first you have to get there, which isn't easy and is best done on foot, so that limits the number of customers significantly. I seriously doubt that anyone coming from Woodside or points further out would use a ferry to go to Shannon Park.

The problem with a ferry option is postgame. While people can stagger their arrival times somewhat, everyone wants out after the game is over. There is no way our ferries can handle a few thousand people in any kind of useful way. We see it when there are events downtown - the ferries are jammed and get very backed up, leaving lots of very frustrated people cooling their heels for hours or forced to find another way home. Ferries are one of those things that are far better in theory than in practice.

Cycling will only be an option for a small number in either location, unless HRM decides to spend a few hundred million to sling a bicycle lane under the MacKay Bridge. As bizarre as it sounds, they bend over backwards for the cycling lobby in this town so nothing would surprise me.

Walking would necessarily be limited to those on the Dartmouth side and even there remember that since the location is at sea level, the walk to wherever home is is uphill all the way.

Reasonable points. How much alternate modes of transportation would be used remains to be seen, and I think would be largely dependent on infrastructure.

If we go on anecdotal observations from how larger events (like Canada Day, Natal Day, outdoor concerts on the commons, etc.) have gone, I would say that the majority of walking crowds would be from people who live within 20-ish minutes of the stadium, likely excluding more elderly fans and those with small children. In the case of Shannon Park, that isn't a lot of people, even less in DC. The rush of cyclists remains to be seen, but there is potential if infrastructure is improved - though largely I have to agree with you in that I'm not seeing it happening on the roads yet. Also, didn't I read about a plan to replace the MacKay sometime in the future? If so, I'm sure bicycle lanes would be included in the new structure.

The boating/cruise/sightseeing options are ones that I hadn't considered. This is actually quite interesting and has potential to bolster transportation options. People will still have to get to the water to take the boats, but if they are coming from multiple locations (like Bedford, Eastern Passage, the Arm, etc.), I can see it working.

In terms of weather, it will always be cooler near the water, but I can say anecdotally that the Shannon Park and more northerly locations around the harbour seem to be a little more sheltered than the downtown waterfront areas and the effects from the harbour seem to be lesser there.

I'm not sure that the location of the powerplant will factor largely into the picture. I do recall that there once was an issue with soot fallout in adjacent neighbourhoods, but I'm under the impression that it had been cleaned up. Barring any additional oil spills I'm thinking that the plant would simply be part of the scenery, with brightly painted stacks looming large in the background.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

You are exactly right of course. And we can be sure that HRM, if left to its own devices, will not put in adequate infrastructure to provide acceptable capacity and access, nor will they be likely to build an overpass to eliminate the level rail crossing on the main access road. But I get the sense that the fix is already in, and that the mayor is cheerleading for this very hard in private, so that any studies will be skewed to support his point of view.

Taxpayers, hold on to your wallets. Might be time to start looking for property in Elmsdale.

It's hard to ignore that the Burnside/Dartmouth Crossing areas are already set up for large amounts of vehicle traffic. I guess we'll see what happens. There already seems to be a lot of momentum for the SP location...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by elly63

A little uncalled for IMHO. Colin makes valid points which should be considered along with the obvious enthusiasm for building a stadium.

I'm all for the idea of having a stadium, but I'm not accepting of diving headlong into a bad deal just to make it happen.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Are you in favour of increasing HRM liabilities by $170 million to bring a stadium to HRM ?
1) Yes, it's only a number
2) I don't know. What is a liability ?
3) No. Are you out of your mind ?
4) Can I make a donation ? I just found $10 down the back of the sofa

You left out the "I like pie" option that is often included in useless online polls.

Polling on a subject like this is useless, as the great unwashed have no idea about finances and see the govt as an endless source of cash for anything. They never make the connection that at some point the public (i.e. them) will have to pay for all this wasteful spending.

I really am starting to think that the imbalance between HRM's financial position and that of the province will need to get addressed by the legislature. HRM is so awash in cash that they are throwing money around like so much confetti.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Also, didn't I read about a plan to replace the MacKay sometime in the future? If so, I'm sure bicycle lanes would be included in the new structure.

HHB is indeed talking about a deck replacement for the MacKay. It will be a traffic nightmare of biblical proportions.

On the subject of bike lanes there, the approaches on either side are all limited-access roads. I can see few practical ways for that infrastructure to accommodate bikes without massive spending.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

On the subject of bike lanes there, the approaches on either side are all limited-access roads. I can see few practical ways for that infrastructure to accommodate bikes without massive spending.

All for the 0.01% of people who will actually bicycle to a CFL game.

They greatly trumpeted the bicycling infrastructure in place for the new Avenir Centre in Moncton, and there are ample bike racks available. I've been to every Wildcats game so far but one. I don't think I've seen a single bicycle outside the venue yet........

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

All for the 0.01% of people who will actually bicycle to a CFL game.

They greatly trumpeted the bicycling infrastructure in place for the new Avenir Centre in Moncton, and there are ample bike racks available. I've been to every Wildcats game so far but one. I don't think I've seen a single bicycle outside the venue yet........

IGF implemented a free bike valet service and it took off way beyond anyone's expectations... there are hundreds of bikes in the valet at each game. It's my usual way of getting to the game when I'm not taking my kids. It became popular in the stadium's first year when they were ironing out the traffic wrinkles and there were some huge jams that could be bypassed on bike. Traffic flows much better these days but people are still cycling.

That said, biking probably appeals mainly to people who either live in the surrounding suburbs or some who park and ride. I'm not sure how many people actually live within the surrounding area of the proposed Halifax stadium and how much the necessary infrastructure would cost, but even in a car-centric place like Winnipeg, cycling to games appeals to a lot of people so it's not necessarily something to be dismissed out of hand.

[q12]

The ownership group (Maritime Football) is holding a press conference with Randy Ambroise next week announcing a conditional CFL franchise and the start of a season ticket drive and team naming contest.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by q12

The ownership group (Maritime Football) is holding a press conference with Randy Ambroise next week announcing a conditional CFL franchise and the start of a season ticket drive and team naming contest.

So the fix must be in.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

HHB is indeed talking about a deck replacement for the MacKay. It will be a traffic nightmare of biblical proportions.

On the subject of bike lanes there, the approaches on either side are all limited-access roads. I can see few practical ways for that infrastructure to accommodate bikes without massive spending.

The preferred approach is actually to build a new bridge next to the MacKay and then tear down the old one. Apparently it will be the same cost because it'll be faster and won't require all the crazy over-night work hours. Hopefully that will be a little less disruptive than the Macdonald re-decking. The new bridge will almost certainly have pedestrian and bike lanes, which will necessitate reconfiguring the approaches so people can get on and off.

All that being said, the timeline for this is way longer than the timeline for a stadium opening.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

The preferred approach is actually to build a new bridge next to the MacKay and then tear down the old one. Apparently it will be the same cost because it'll be faster and won't require all the crazy over-night work hours. Hopefully that will be a little less disruptive than the Macdonald re-decking. The new bridge will almost certainly have pedestrian and bike lanes, which will necessitate reconfiguring the approaches so people can get on and off.

All that being said, the timeline for this is way longer than the timeline for a stadium opening.

That's the proposal that I remember reading.

True, I'm sure it wouldn't be done in time for the opening of the stadium, but surely would be part of the long-term plan.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

A stadium built in New Zealand recently with a cost similar to the proposed Halifax stadium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyth_Barr_Stadium

That's interesting. Thanks for posting.

Of note is that Dunedin has a population of 130,000 and anchors a wider region of about 250,000 people.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Different people will choose different options depending on what works for them. Some people can't bike or walk, some don't have a car, some live far away so they will drive, etc. I assume traffic will be bad whether the stadium is built at Shannon Park or Dartmouth Crossing. But at least at Shannon Park you might have options other than waiting behind 4,000 vehicles to get onto the highway.

Getting to Shannon Park by car from the other suburbs or rural areas is nothing like driving into downtown Vancouver or Toronto, and marginally different from Dartmouth Crossing aside from the current vehicle access to the site itself which will have to be expanded. I also have a feeling that the CFL could appeal to wider demographics in Halifax because there are no comparable alternatives along the lines of MLS or NHL.

The ferry is a particularly nice option for a bunch of reasons. It is way more pleasant to be on the upper deck of the ferry than packed on a bus, it's pretty, and it works well for visitors. The ferries could also dump people off in 3 different locations. And theoretically they could be chartered for the event; there could be more than just city ferries. A lot of people will take ferries even if they are not interested in a bus.

I've been to Senators and Redblacks games multiple times and getting to and from the latter is a far more pleasant experience.

OC Transpo service on Bank St. itself is slow but they have shuttles that run along the parkway next to the Rideau Canal that are much faster. You can park and ride to the shuttle at various locations (malls, government buildings, etc.) maybe 1-2 km from the stadium.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

So the fix must be in.

Don't think so, more an attempt to create the impression that this is a viable proposal.
Crucial questions :
Who will own the stadium ?
Who will finance the construction of the stadium ?
Does anyone believe a bank or a financial institution will lend over $100,000,000 without having security from the province or HRM ?
It isn't a mall or an office tower or a condo or an apartment building which can be sold when the owner defaults on the loan payments. The feds aren't interested, the province is smart enough not to be on the hook if there is a default and Dube is peddling the line that HRM is not willing to be at risk; so who is at risk ? Are the members of the limited partnership willing to pledge personal assets to a lender; the answer to the question is obviously 'NO'.

From The Coast : " The former president of the Arizona Coyotes stressed that Maritime Football will take on the $3 million a year in operational risks from running the stadium.

Only the operational risk, he was quick to clarify. Not the financing risk.

“No, no, no, no, no, stop, stop. I didn’t say we’d take on the [financing] risk. We would take on the operational risk. We were very clear we would take on the operational risk. That’s not the financing risk. We said we would take on the operational risk.”
https://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/archives/2018/10/31/no-clear-answers-on-stadium-finances

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

So the fix must be in.

Basically they're trying to get people committed to STHs before they announce how much they're actually contributing to the project and how much they're asking for from the public.

When the vote goes to council in six months MFLP can say "we have X amount of people already committed!" before they have to publicly announce how much (or little) money they're putting forward.

Originally Posted by Dartguard

DC is a better location for transportation options as per the points raised by other posters.

This is where the transportation requirements for a stadium differ from the transportation requirements for a CFL team. A CFL game is going to have a lot of people travelling by car, an international rugby or soccer match is going to be a different demographic entirely. If HRM is putting in the majority (or whatever) of funding for the stadium i'd rather the stadium be fit more for the city than for the franchise that's a tenant. There's going to be some crossover of course but there's a big difference in targeting market.

A stadium in DC is asking for massive traffic backlogs simply due to its location.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

They greatly trumpeted the bicycling infrastructure in place for the new Avenir Centre in Moncton, and there are ample bike racks available. I've been to every Wildcats game so far but one. I don't think I've seen a single bicycle outside the venue yet........

Moncton is a very suburban-car oriented city. Halifax has higher rates of active and sustainable transportation. I'd recommend visiting peninsular Halifax and seeing how many people bike around. I would also recommend checking out the active transportation numbers for TD Place (Ottawa) that I have posted in this thread previously. That stadium is more urban that any of the proposed MFLP stadium sites in Halifax but it gives a good idea of how many people bike/walk to CFL/USL/OHL games.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've been to Senators and Redblacks games multiple times and getting to and from the latter is a far more pleasant experience.

Nobody goes to Senators games because sitting in traffic for 45 minutes both ways is nobody's idea of a good time. Neither is paying $30 for parking.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JHikka

A stadium in DC is asking for massive traffic backlogs simply due to its location.

A stadium in Shannon Park is going to have traffic backlogs that are several times more massive, guaranteed. One place is designed to handle traffic, the other isn't and will not be.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

A stadium in Shannon Park is going to have traffic backlogs that are several times more massive, guaranteed. One place is designed to handle traffic, the other isn't and will not be.

One location is better suited to handle multiple modes of transport. The other is in a power centre.