Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[king10]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Clearly population is just one of many potential factors that might dictate the success or failure of this product. There's been professional football in those smaller Canadian markets for decades. Interest in it has grown, slowly, over time. As we all know, people actually talk about CFL football in the Prairies and nobody looks at you cross-eyed. If somebody tries to do that in Southern Ontario, well, needless to say, it's a great way to alienate yourself in the workplace.

Anyway, I wish Halifax luck in this endeavour but any comparison with Saskatchewan, for example, should be done very cautiously.

I live and work in Hamilton and cannot disagree enough with this statement.

Ticats are a big talking point in this town, and no you wouldn't alienate yourself in the workplace talking about them.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And, the Maritimes arguably now have the best freeway system in the Dominion but q12 is being overly optimistic here. Nobody can drive 120 km/hr the entire way from Freddy to Halifax, and you have to add in coffee, rest and pee breaks. Also, with a location at Shannon Park, at least a half hour will have to be added on to the travel time to get there and find your parking spot. A trip from Freddy would be 4 hr 20 minutes minimum (nearly 9 hours return). An overnight stay would be mandatory. Even the most ardent Freddy football fan would only make the trek once a year.

Hell, I live considerably closer to Halifax in Moncton, and I only ever go down to Halifax 2-3 times per year.

The Cobequid Pass toll is more of a nuisance than a deal breaker in terms of driving to Halifax or not but I can guarantee you that PEIslanders do not shop in Halifax "regularly". Islanders are homebodies (I grew up there). If there is someplace they shop reasonably frequently it's Costco in Moncton (1 hr 45 minutes from Charlottetown).

You can bypass the toll booth on the Cobequid Pass, but then you have to drive through the Wentworth Valley instead (~ 40 km at 80 km/hr). Not many people do this.

The Cobequid Pass is very well maintained, no question. As for Mainers visiting Foxboro, perhaps if they live in Kennebunk, York or Ogunquit. They are essentially Boston exurbs in any event. Nobody north of Portland would frequent Foxboro on even a semi routine basis.

I think it's more like 600,000, but that's beside the point. The local population in central NS is more than sufficient to support a CFL team. Overall, I imagine they will compromise about 80% of the fans in the stadium seats. The majority of the rest will come from elsewhere on the peninsula, and from southeastern NB.

I'll be there 1-2 times per year.

Aww ok, just as I thought, so that makes most of New Brunswick and PEI likely not going to games on a regular basis, over nighting it, but seeing games in Halifax maybe a couple times a year, about the same 4 hour drive distance as central Manitoba to Regina to see Blue Bombers at Mosaic stadium in Regina, and 4 or 5 hour drive from Alberta cities like Medicine Hat & Lethbridge ( larger city than Fredericton) to see Alberta teams in Regina.
With added nuisance of Tolls or having to take the 'long route' from New Brunswick, football fans there would fundamentally have to latch onto Halifax team as their very own once the novelty of having one major Pro Sports in Maritimes ... or at least wait for their favourite team to come to town, There are CFL fans across the country & RiderNation is vast.

I did take a quick look at Central Nova Scotia population of Municipalities, looks like just under 550,000 people within 60 minute drive of potential stadium, (some parts of the Halifax city limit itself is over an hour from Dartmoth though).

Halifax has 403,000 in its vast 5500 sq kms (same size as PEI), that'll be a potential football team's bread and butter, Halifax doesn't have another large CMA in the Province to have fans from.

.
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...But there is almost another 150,000 people in the Municipalities surrounding Halifax (even though population is dropping) West & East Hants (35,000), Lunenburg (25,000), Chester (10,000), Kings (45,000), Colchester (35,000).

Every man woman and child will have to be a CFL fan right from the start, Entire populous making sure to see at least one game every couple years or so to make it work. As mentioned before, I really think Maritime pride will shine through & that they can pull it off and be great hosts to foster a new fledgling team. *fingers crossed

[Taeolas]

The Toll would not be a factor for NBers going to see a game in Halifax. It's only a few bucks, and if you're already heading to Halifax, it would be a trivial additional cost.

I think what might be a bigger factor is how fast they can get a team together and playing. One of the proposals I've heard in the past (that may or may not be done now) is that Halifax's new team would actually start playing in Moncton for a season or two while the Halifax stadium is built.

To me (and admittedly I don't know if this is what really happens or not) but to me, this feels like a good idea. It helps establish the team as a regional team in the early years. It may not get as many Halifax fans right off the bat, but it establishes a fanbase in NB and PEI that would be more likely to follow it once it shifts to its new home in Halifax. Moncton being a smaller stadium for it in those early years would help it have a higher %-filled stats too (even if the total numbers are lower).

As a Freddy Beacher, I can attest that Halifax is only ~4hours away. Maybe not close enough to consider a weekday game, but if I was a sports fan, a weekend game would certainly be on the radar. I haven't been to Halifax in a long time personally; but that's due to not having a reason to head to Halifax, and not because of how far away it is. And I know many others who do visit Halifax regularly.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

I think what might be a bigger factor is how fast they can get a team together and playing. One of the proposals I've heard in the past (that may or may not be done now) is that Halifax's new team would actually start playing in Moncton for a season or two while the Halifax stadium is built.

To me (and admittedly I don't know if this is what really happens or not) but to me, this feels like a good idea. It helps establish the team as a regional team in the early years. It may not get as many Halifax fans right off the bat, but it establishes a fanbase in NB and PEI that would be more likely to follow it once it shifts to its new home in Halifax. Moncton being a smaller stadium for it in those early years would help it have a higher %-filled stats too (even if the total numbers are lower).

The CFL commissioner and the Halifax ownership group did meet Mayor Dawn Arnold and Premier Brian Gallant to discuss the possibility of the new team playing at the Moncton Stadium for 1-2 years - Mayor Arnold said as much.

I think both Arnold & Gallant were on board, but upgrades to the Moncton Stadium would be necessary, which could be reasonably expensive (several million dollars at least).

I don't know the current status of this possibility but the chaos around the recent NB election and the probable replacement of Brian Gallant by Blaine Higgs will likely put the kibosh to this, given how parsimonious Higgs seems to be. I can't imagine him forking over millions of dollars to upgrade the Moncton Stadium for a temporary tenant.......

[esquire]

^ The Ticats spent a year playing at Alumni Stadium in Guelph while THF was being built... Moncton's stadium looks more capable of handling pro football than Guelph's was.

But that said, I think there is some value in getting things started off on the right foot. Doing a kind of half assed season where everything is in flux with temporary everything is not really the ideal way to start. Personally I think the team should start playing only once their facility is built and ready.

[FFX-ME]

Instead of speculating what the distance that is within range is use this website to determine it:

https://app.traveltimeplatform.com/

60 mins (pop of about 530k)


90 mins (population of about 580k within driving distance)

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

But that said, I think there is some value in getting things started off on the right foot. Doing a kind of half assed season where everything is in flux with temporary everything is not really the ideal way to start. Personally I think the team should start playing only once their facility is built and ready.

Agreed. Everything about a CFL team playing in Moncton seems temporary and half-assed. Seems difficult for a team to find a good base and momentum when they're moving three hours away in a year or two. Difficult to get a lot of people committed locally when they're not going to be immediately attached to the market.

I would understand the team playing out of Truro or Lunenburg or something but Moncton seems a bit of a stretch.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Agreed. Everything about a CFL team playing in Moncton seems temporary and half-assed. Seems difficult for a team to find a good base and momentum when they're moving three hours away in a year or two. Difficult to get a lot of people committed locally when they're not going to be immediately attached to the market.

I would understand the team playing out of Truro or Lunenburg or something but Moncton seems a bit of a stretch.

Truro or Lunenburg don't have a venue.

I understand what you mean about difficulty in getting people invested in the team in Moncton if they are only there for a year or two but if the ownership group were to make a firmer commitment to the city (training camp, exhibition games etc) on an ongoing basis, I think it could be different.

Regardless, I doubt that it will happen.........

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Agreed. Everything about a CFL team playing in Moncton seems temporary and half-assed. Seems difficult for a team to find a good base and momentum when they're moving three hours away in a year or two. Difficult to get a lot of people committed locally when they're not going to be immediately attached to the market.

I would understand the team playing out of Truro or Lunenburg or something but Moncton seems a bit of a stretch.

Including Moncton somehow would be a good idea. The stadium there looks perfect for training camp, and it might even be possible to hold a preseason game there.

At one point in the late 80s/early 90s, the Bombers and Roughriders used to hold an extra preseason game in Saskatoon. I only have foggy memories of hearing about it (they weren't ever televised), but as I recall they were the first preseason game of the schedule... I'm not even sure if they were part of the "official" CFL schedule or not. I'm sure it was almost all rookies playing seeing that it was the first game. But doing something like that and bringing in one of the other eastern teams to play Halifax is still a decent attraction and gives fans a game experience that goes beyond just watching training camp drills. Might be something to consider down the road.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Including Moncton somehow would be a good idea. The stadium there looks perfect for training camp, and it might even be possible to hold a preseason game there.

At one point in the late 80s/early 90s, the Bombers and Roughriders used to hold an extra preseason game in Saskatoon. I only have foggy memories of hearing about it (they weren't ever televised), but as I recall they were the first preseason game of the schedule... I'm not even sure if they were part of the "official" CFL schedule or not. I'm sure it was almost all rookies playing seeing that it was the first game. But doing something like that and bringing in one of the other eastern teams to play Halifax is still a decent attraction and gives fans a game experience that goes beyond just watching training camp drills. Might be something to consider.

I support this idea in general. NHL teams do this well, CHL teams to a lesser extent, MLB teams do occasionally. A team like the Maple Leafs only benefit from having preseason games in London or Oshawa or wherever. It's where their marketing and communications arms wants to point to. NHL exhibition games out east were always a big draw when they rolled into town.

Moncton is an ideal location for CFL exhibition games/training camps, I just don't think it's feasible to place a team there temporarily for two seasons before departing. Feels overly temporary more-so than a week before the season does.

I also don't really buy into the Halifax CFL team being a pan-Maritime team. They might need people from around the Maritimes to be more feasible, and they would be smart to try to market to the rest of the Maritimes, but they're going to be a sports team based out of Halifax and the Maritimes is tribal by nature. If Halifax gets a team I think NB eyes start looking at Moncton for a potential team more than hopping on the Halifax bandwagon. That's just an IMO.

[esquire]

^ I could see that being the case. I'm sure once a season ticket pledge drive begins they'll quickly get a sense for how much interest there is in Moncton or NB generally. If it turns out that there's a fair degree of interest, training camp in Moncton becomes a more appealing prospect.

[megadude]

That idea is very reminiscent of:

Tennessee Oilers era (1997–98)

After fan support in Houston collapsed for the 1996 season, the Oilers announced they would be moving to Tennessee for 1997. They intended to play at a new stadium in Nashville, but it would not be ready until 1999. The largest stadium in Nashville at the time, Vanderbilt Stadium on the campus of Vanderbilt University, seated only 41,000 — a capacity deemed too small for even temporary use. Vanderbilt was also unwilling to permit alcohol sales. However, Adams ruled out using the state's largest stadium, the University of Tennessee's Neyland Stadium, in Knoxville; at 102,000 seats, it would have been all but impossible to sell out in time to avoid local blackouts on television.

Ultimately, Adams announced that the renamed Tennessee Oilers would play the next two seasons at Liberty Bowl Memorial Stadium in Memphis. The team would be based in Nashville, commuting to Memphis only for games—essentially sentencing the Oilers to 32 road games for the next two years.

Even though this arrangement was acceptable to the NFL and the Oilers at the time, few people in either Memphis or Nashville were happy about it. After numerous attempts to get an NFL team over the last three decades, Memphians wanted nothing to do with a team that would be lost in only two years—especially to longtime rival Nashville. Conversely, Nashvillians showed little inclination to drive over 200 miles (320 km) to see "their" team. At the time, Interstate 40 was in the midst of major reconstruction in the Memphis area, lengthening the normal three-hour drive between Nashville and Memphis to five hours.

In Memphis, attendance was even worse than it had been in the team's final season in Houston. The Oilers played before some of the smallest NFL crowds since the 1950s, with none of the first seven games of the season attracting crowds larger than 27,000 (in a 62,000-seat stadium), and with at least two crowds of less than 18,000. The few fans there were usually indifferent, and often those that attended were fans of the opposing team. Attendance was smaller than what the USFL's Memphis Showboats had drawn and what the XFL's Memphis Maniax would draw to the same stadium. It appeared that only large contingents of fans supporting the Oilers' opponents kept average attendance from dropping below what it had been for the CFL's Memphis Mad Dogs.

Despite this, Adams had every intention of playing in Memphis the next season. That changed after the final game of the 1997 season. The Oilers faced the Pittsburgh Steelers in front of 50,677 fans—the only crowd that could not have been reasonably accommodated at Vanderbilt. However, Steeler fans made up the great majority of the crowd (at least three-fourths, by one estimate[1]). Adams was so embarrassed that he abandoned plans to play the 1998 season in Memphis and ended up playing at Vanderbilt after all. The team rebounded that season, and was in playoff contention until losing their last two games for another 8–8 record. The Oilers had gone 6-2 in Memphis while going 2-6 on the road. The Titans have maintained both radio and preseason TV affiliates in the Memphis area.

This involved a relocating team though and not one starting from scratch.

[Acajack]

It wasn't an expansion team but the Carolina Hurricanes when they moved from Hartford (Whalers) to North Carolina, played for a number of seasons in Greensboro while their arena was being built in Raleigh (two hours away?).

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Instead of speculating what the distance that is within range is use this website to determine it:

https://app.traveltimeplatform.com/

60 mins (pop of about 530k)


90 mins (population of about 580k within driving distance)

Within this 60 - 90 minute range is where pretty well all the season ticket holders will originate from - ideally 16,000 - 18,000 of them. When this season ticket drive begins I hope one of the conditions with the deposits would be 3-5 year commitments for seats and 5 - 10 year commitments for suites. This provides some medium term certainty in an unproven market.

[Taeolas]

Good points have been raised about Moncton.

If they are going to advertise this "Halifax Schooners" team as a Regional/Maritime team, then starting in Moncton and shifting to Halifax might be a way to build up a regional presence; especially if they can keep Moncton in the equation with events after it moves.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It wasn't an expansion team but the Carolina Hurricanes when they moved from Hartford (Whalers) to North Carolina, played for a number of seasons in Greensboro while their arena was being built in Raleigh (two hours away?).

They did and the crowds were awful...around 8,000 per game.

There is no point in playing regular season games in Moncton while waiting for a stadium to be built in Halifax. People in Moncton and New Brunswick are not going to invest time, money and emotion in a team that they know beforehand will be leaving. In the end, the team would lose millions which is not exactly optimal for a new franchise in a league where breaking even is considered a major accomplishment.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It wasn't an expansion team but the Carolina Hurricanes when they moved from Hartford (Whalers) to North Carolina, played for a number of seasons in Greensboro while their arena was being built in Raleigh (two hours away?).

The Tennessee Titans did something similar, they played in Memphis for a year before moving to Nashville. Same with the Carolina Panthers, they played in Clemson for their first year.

Of course, the temporary facilities in those cases were pro calibre from day one, so the "temporary everything" phenomenon wasn't an issue. And as blueandgoldguy pointed out, at least with respect to the NFL teams you didn't have to worry so much about selling the product and being profitable. The last thing an expansion team needs is financial devastation in year one in case the Moncton tenancy didn't take off.

I'm thinking training camp in Moncton should be as far as it goes. The more I ponder it though, the more I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense just to do it in Halifax too.

[megadude]

I don't even recall that Carolina Hurricanes situation. I recall the Florida Panthers playing in Miami and then moving to new building in Broward Co. but that's basically the same metro area.

Greensboro it turns out is actually under 1.5 hour drive from Raleigh. And just over 1.5 hours to Charlotte. Small population in Greensboro but sandwiched in between Charlotte and Raleigh areas which each have over 2 million apparently. Kind of suggests that no one was buying in to this new team named after the Carolinas region during their temporary residence. But then again, it's hockey and other pro teams or major college was already present.

CFL would instantly jump to the top of the sports hierarchy in Moncton, Halifax and rest of the region.

As for Tennessee Titans, again, named after the region, but in this case, football is king, but Memphis people didn't care for it. And they didn't have a pro team. Basically just a pretty decent college basketball team.

So while excitement for a first major pro team in the region I'm sure would be palpable, the jury remains out as to whether Moncton and the Maritimes would support the new team given the temporary status.

I can see both arguments for and against this arrangement being a success and whether it would be good or bad for the future of the franchise. I'm totally on the fence on this one.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Tennessee Titans did something similar, they played in Memphis for a year before moving to Nashville. Same with the Carolina Panthers, they played in Clemson for their first year.

Of course, the temporary facilities in those cases were pro calibre from day one, so the "temporary everything" phenomenon wasn't an issue. And as blueandgoldguy pointed out, at least with respect to the NFL teams you didn't have to worry so much about selling the product and being profitable. The last thing an expansion team needs is financial devastation in year one in case the Moncton tenancy didn't take off.

I'm thinking training camp in Moncton should be as far as it goes. The more I ponder it though, the more I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense just to do it in Halifax too.

Ya I mentioned the Titans a few posts above. Didn't realize the Panthers did this too. And good points about playing in high calibre facilities in the first place, which eliminated any concern for renovation costs.

[megadude]

I wanna say the Bills in Toronto series could teach some lessons but that was a very different situation.

A better but still flawed example I thought I'd throw in is Univ. of Arkansas Razorbacks. They're from Fayatteville but split their 7 or 8 home games a year between there and the state capital of Little Rock, some three hours away.

I am guessing the LR games are well attended because they've been doing this for a long time.

The Razorbacks are the closest and only thing to big time sports for the entire state to identify with so I see why it works.

Though tonnes of grads must live in LR so it's almost like them attending a game on campus again just like in the old days. So this part would be different than proposal we are discussing. Plus we're talking about two different provinces here instead of one state.