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  #6421  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 9:39 PM
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I'll argue semantics here and say that if it is an outdoor facility if it is Halifax or Schooner controlled it will basically be one and the same. I think Halifax would be more likely to lead and control a fieldhouse.

Regardless, if it wasn't for the CFL initiative, it's highly unlikely we would be having this conversation at all. After two previous failed Halifax stadium attempts in this century, this one is no sure thing either. I think Halifax needs the CFL owners to get them off their ass, for what is in my opinion, needed infrastructure for a city its size.
     
     
  #6422  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 9:46 PM
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One of the reasons why it matters is to get off to a good start. Rightly or wrongly, first impressions tend to stick and are difficult to erase. There were a lot of naysayers about the design in Hamilton and the process in Ottawa. Thankfully most of that has been assuaged but that's not a problem that Halifax needs going into this.

Considering that the cost for THF was only supposed to be 120 million (with a 25 million contingency fund), I don't know how anyone can be displeased with the final result.


FWIW, most people that I have read on the CFL site and other fan sites give Tim Hortons Field positive reviews. The biggest recurring complaint is the stadium's location, and you will always have people who don't like a stadium's location regardless of where it is situated.
My guess is that the proposed Halifax stadium will look a lot like THF, but with canopies overhanging the seating to help mitigate the fact that it will be more exposed to the elements at a waterfront site.
     
     
  #6423  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 9:51 PM
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FWIW, most people that I have read on the CFL site and other fan sites give Tim Hortons Field positive reviews.
It wasn't too popular when it was being built. I said then that if people were honest and looked at the final product when it was finished that it was actually better than was anticipated.


     
     
  #6424  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 9:56 PM
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It wasn't too popular when it was being built. I said then that if people were honest and looked at the final product when it was finished that it was actually better than was anticipated.
Was there any polling done? Often the naysayers are loudest but they may or may not represent a common opinion. In Halifax there is a constant negative drumbeat from certain journalists. Not sure what Hamilton is like.

If you read a lot of comments or articles about a stadium in Halifax you might think that it is a divisive issue or a niche piece of infrastructure. But actually over 60% of people support public funding for a stadium. That's a decently high number; no one project is going to make everybody happy.

My impression is that if something like THF were built in Shannon Park is would be quite popular and successful in the sense that people would use it a lot and the impact on taxpayers would be small.

(The capital cost of a stadium is only about 1% of GDP. It's about $20B annually for Halifax.)
     
     
  #6425  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 9:58 PM
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If you read a lot of comments or articles about a stadium in Halifax you might think that it is a divisive issue or a niche piece of infrastructure. But actually over 60% of people support public funding for a stadium. That's a decently high number; no one project is going to make everybody happy.
Is the 60% number you're citing from the polling that the potential ownership group commissioned by any chance? They had a slide presented to council claiming that figure.

Any time i've been in Halifax, like most other cities, i've been hard-pressed to find people supportive of the idea of putting substantial public money into a stadium.
     
     
  #6426  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:00 PM
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Was there any polling done? Often the naysayers are loudest but they may or may not represent a common opinion. In Halifax there is a constant negative drumbeat from certain journalists.

If you read a lot of comments or articles about a stadium in Halifax you might think that it is a divisive issue or a niche piece of infrastructure. But actually over 60% of people support public funding for a stadium. That's a decently high number; no one project is going to make everybody happy.

My impression is that if something like THF were built in Shannon Park is would be quite popular and successful.
This forum itself had more naysayers than positive comments regarding THF, I know that because I was one of the few defending it.

As for a Halifax stadium I am finding less resistance to the idea than any other Canadian stadium I can remember. Even the so called non mainstream press hasn't been all that bad.
     
     
  #6427  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:06 PM
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It wasn't too popular when it was being built. I said then that if people were honest and looked at the final product when it was finished that it was actually better than was anticipated.
THF isn't all sunshine and rainbows, though. It opened late due to construction dragging on, the city of Hamilton ended up in litigation seeking $35M in damages from the consortium charged with building it, and even today the city is still fixing the stadium four years after completion.

https://www.hamiltonnews.com/news-story/...tim-hortons-field-construction-problems/

This is beside the financial issues surrounding IGF, as well. If I was a Halifax councillor googling recent stadium builds I probably wouldn't be enthused. I imagine city staff will cover this in their report to council.
     
     
  #6428  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:16 PM
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THF isn't all sunshine and rainbows, though. It opened late due to construction dragging on, the city of Hamilton ended up in litigation seeking $35M in damages from the consortium charged with building it, and even today the city is still fixing the stadium four years after completion.
They weren't that big of issues than what many new stadiums face upon completion.
     
     
  #6429  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:17 PM
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THF isn't all sunshine and rainbows, though. It opened late due to construction dragging on, the city of Hamilton ended up in litigation seeking $35M in damages from the consortium charged with building it, and even today the city is still fixing the stadium four years after completion.

https://www.hamiltonnews.com/news-story/...tim-hortons-field-construction-problems/

This is beside the financial issues surrounding IGF, as well. If I was a Halifax councillor googling recent stadium builds I probably wouldn't be enthused. I imagine city staff will cover this in their report to council.
The rush to build the stadium in time for the Pan Am Games probably contributed to many of the problems Hamilton experienced. Halifax should take note, and if necessary, push the franchise's kickoff back a year. It also wouldn't hurt to have smaller events at a stadium before any CFL games or big concerts to help work out any issues that might arise. Saskatchewan did that with their new Mosaic Stadium.
     
     
  #6430  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:32 PM
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What we know — and what we don’t — as the Halifax CFL stadium proposal heads to council
Zane Woodford, StarMetro Halifax October 29, 2018

HALIFAX—The future of a stadium and professional football franchise is in council’s hands this week.

Halifax regional council’s vote on Tuesday is a critical step; it could either throw out the proposal completely or lay the groundwork for a stadium and team in the municipality.

But there are countless unknowns, including the true cost to taxpayers.

The pitch from Maritime Football Limited Partnership (MFLP) is for a 24,000-seat stadium surrounded by commercial and residential development on a six- to eight-hectare portion of the 38-hectare Shannon Park lands, the former site of military housing next to the Dartmouth side of the MacKay Bridge.

The partnership, consisting of AMJ Campbell Van Lines president Bruce Bowser and former Arizona Coyotes co-owners Anthony Leblanc and Gary Drummond, is in talks with the Canadian Football League (CFL) to secure an expansion franchise for Halifax for the 2021 season, conditional on a stadium.

MFLP has met with Halifax Regional Municipality (HRM) staff, council, provincial staff and Premier Stephen McNeil.

A report to council recommends directing staff to complete a business case analysis on the project, work with the province to make the necessary legislative changes and determine new ways to pay for it and report back to council with a business case and a no-or-go recommendation.

The report says the stadium would cost between $170 million to $190 million; one reason for the more thorough business case is to nail down a precise figure.

The report suggests MFLP would buy the land, currently owned by a Crown corporation, Canada Lands Corporation (CLC).

It’s unclear who would own the stadium once completed, and other than HRM, it’s unclear who would pay for the cost of building it.

The report says the construction of the stadium would be paid for through a controversial model known as Tax Incremental Financing (TIF). In short, HRM would borrow the money needed to build the stadium and use increased property taxes in the surrounding area, a TIF district, to pay it back.

The justification for TIFs is typically that the project wouldn’t be possible without using the model and that the increased property values in the area will result in enough tax revenue to cover the annual debt costs — in this case $10 million, if the stadium cost $190 million.

“TIF models do have a risk factor as they are related to property values that can be affected by supply, construction delays, build-out time and absorption,” the staff report says.

It’s a similar model to the one used to finance the Halifax Convention Centre. In that case, the math isn’t working out. The office and retail portions of the larger Nova Centre project are largely vacant, the hotel is still unfinished and the resulting property tax assessments are lower than expected.

The staff report says Halifax would be a “partner” in the capital financing but never specifies whether MFLP would pay any of the capital cost. The report also suggests HRM will be on the hook for ongoing costs.

“Based on the preliminary discussion and information provided by MFLP, it is expected that HRM’s contribution to a stadium would include being a funding partner on the capital cost to construct the stadium as well as possibly being a contributor to ongoing capital repairs and maintenance,” the report says.

The staff report says securing funding from the province is “essential,” but the premier has publicly stated that capital financing through general revenue or tax incentives is off the table for the project.

Instead, staff are floating two alternative ideas: increasing the municipality’s hotel marketing levy and creating a new tax on car rentals. Either idea would require legislative changes from the provincial government. The staff report doesn’t say how much money the municipality would seek from the province through those taxes.

The report says MFLP would also seek a property tax break agreement on the stadium, something HRM doesn’t have the legal authority to do with for-profit corporations.

From a municipal planning standpoint, the project would need bylaw amendments to allow and expedite the process, “which would designate the selected stadium and mixed-use development as a matter of regional significance, requiring special policy and regulatory consideration.”

The approval process — including public engagement, community and regional council approval and provincial approval — could be completed as quickly as six months, the report says.

The staff report expressed concerns about the project on the planning side, including its effect on the Centre Plan and the Cogswell redevelopment project.

“A concern would be that the proposal simply shifts development from one area of the municipality to another, and as a result, there would be no incremental tax revenues. Competition could impact the build out and absorption of units for the Cogswell Development,” staff say.

There’s also millions of dollars worth of municipal infrastructure to worry about.

“Infrastructure could range from parks, roads, transit, public safety and street lights to any associated recreation requirements,” the report says.

The site is also prone to storm surge and sea level rise, the staff report says, “and may require unique engineering solutions to address risks to planned public roads, parks, services and other public infrastructure.”

If council moves ahead as recommended on Tuesday, staff will attempt to answer these questions and HRM and MFLP will start gauging public support for the project.

CLC won’t sell the land needed unless the proponents undertake a public engagement process “to confirm community support for the incorporation of the stadium into the current Shannon Park redevelopment concept.”

MFLP will also need the Millbrook First Nation, which is acquiring about three hectares of the Shannon Park lands, on its side.

“It will be necessary that the Millbrook First Nation is engaged and confirms that it supports the proposed stadium development,” the staff report says.

Public support currently varies, depending on who’s asked and who’s asking.

A Corporate Research Associates poll cited in the staff report, with no methodology or margin of error noted, says that “63 per cent of HRM residents support a stadium being built with the financial support of municipal and provincial governments.”

A poll commissioned by StarMetro Halifax and conducted by MQO Research earlier this year found a split in public opinion. MQO surveyed 500 Halifax residents in late March and early April, resulting in a margin of error, for a population of this size, of plus or minus 4.4 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

Forty-two per cent of respondents said their views were either “very favourable” or “favourable” to the idea of taxpayer money being used for a stadium, and 41 per cent said their views were “unfavourable” or “very unfavourable.”

Shannon Park was the No. 1 location favoured by respondents in that poll, with 27 per cent choosing it over Dartmouth Crossing at 22 per cent and Bayers Lake at 14 per cent.

If council follows the staff recommendation on Tuesday, MFLP will start public engagement and then launch a season-ticket drive and a team-naming contest and finalize its agreement with the CFL.
     
     
  #6431  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 11:02 PM
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How do investors in the CFL team earn a return on their investment ?
Which teams have a 5 year history of profit ?
The TSN contract ends in 2010.
A franchise fee is circa $10 million.
     
     
  #6432  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 1:06 AM
elly63 elly63 is online now
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Is there a point amongst that babbling?
     
     
  #6433  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 2:35 AM
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Here's a rendering:

     
     
  #6434  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 11:43 AM
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That rendering is exactly what I would expect from HRM: no parking and no easy access. Perfect!
     
     
  #6435  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 11:51 AM
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That rendering is exactly what I would expect from HRM: no parking and no easy access. Perfect!
My personal choice would have been Dartmouth Crossing. There is more of a road network there to allow for dispersal of traffic at the end of an event, and more land available for parking.

There is no question however that Shannon Park would be more physically attractive, and would stimulate development in Dartmouth's north end. The addition of a ferry dock would be interesting, but I doubt that too many people would actually take the ferry to the venue. I think capacity issues would weigh heavily on this possibility.

How many vehicular access points would there be to Shannon Park? One, two at most?? Would there be a line-up to access the site prior to an event that would extend onto the McKay Bridge???

They had better do a thorough traffic study.
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  #6436  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 12:18 PM
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I don't think Dartmouth Crossing had city council as excited. Shannon park has them interested due to potential urban development infrastructure (Ferries, new transit, residential, etc.)

If you look closely at the Mackay bridge toll you can see a massive traffic jam (photo taken Oct. 17th)


https://twitter.com/McgrawCory/status/1052584552223465473
     
     
  #6437  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 12:30 PM
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Found this on CFL reddit

https://imgur.com/a/NV9VbQ8


Video Link


Potential view from the stadium:

Last edited by q12; Oct 30, 2018 at 12:44 PM.
     
     
  #6438  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 1:14 PM
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Not enough land available at Dartmouth Crossing. Shannon Park is flat,DC is not. And NADG is a private business and not subject to all the political lobbying which is going on for Crown lands. NADG is in the business of making a profit.
Aerial map of DC : https://www.nadg.com/property/dartmouth-crossing/
     
     
  #6439  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 1:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
My personal choice would have been Dartmouth Crossing. There is more of a road network there to allow for dispersal of traffic at the end of an event, and more land available for parking.

There is no question however that Shannon Park would be more physically attractive, and would stimulate development in Dartmouth's north end. The addition of a ferry dock would be interesting, but I doubt that too many people would actually take the ferry to the venue. I think capacity issues would weigh heavily on this possibility.

How many vehicular access points would there be to Shannon Park? One, two at most?? Would there be a line-up to access the site prior to an event that would extend onto the McKay Bridge???

They had better do a thorough traffic study.
Good points.

I'm a little perplexed when people say that transportation options are so much better at Shannon Park than DC. I agree that it is a better location in terms of being iconic and a nicer setting, on the waterfront, and ferry access would be a nice way to get to a game or event... but yeah, one would really want to do the numbers to see what the actual capacity would be in terms of moving a lot of people in and out in a short amount of time. Each ferry only carries 390 passengers maximum, so how many people can realistically be moved in/out of a 25,000 seat stadium using ferry service?

Additionally:
- There is no bicycle access on the MacKay bridge, so cycling is no better an option for SP vs DC.
- There is no passenger rail service in either area so no advantage one way or the other.
- There currently is only one access route in/out of SP, fed by Victoria Road and Hwy111. Even if additional access routes are added (they would have to be), we're still limited by the capacity of the 111 and route 7. DC, on the other hand, has access from the 111 and 7, but additionally the 107, 118 and eventually the Burnside/Sackville expressway (if it ever happens). Those 3 routes would have to feed into the 111 in order to get to SP.

So... maybe someone can explain to me why Shannon Park is a better alternative to DC for alternate forms (i.e. non-car) of transportation? It appears to be inferior from a car traffic perspective, so what are the advantages?
     
     
  #6440  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 5:07 PM
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Each ferry only carries 390 passengers maximum, so how many people can realistically be moved in/out of a 25,000 seat stadium using ferry service?
Well there are 5 ferries and the downtown Halifax-Dartmouth crossing takes only around 10 minutes, so they can probably do around 2 round trips to Shannon Park per hour. That's about 8,000 people over a 2 hour period. The real throughput will be much less than this but there will be no transportation "silver bullet". If the ferries handle 10-30% that will be great, and there is an option to add more ferries.

Quote:
- There is no bicycle access on the MacKay bridge, so cycling is no better an option for SP vs DC.
Lots of people will be able to cycle to parts of Dartmouth or across the Macdonald. Google Maps says that it's only about a 50 minute walk from downtown Dartrmouth to the Shannon Park stadium site. In the overall scheme of this project, improved pedestrian and cycling infrastructure will cost peanuts. It will also be more viable because these events will mostly be happening from spring to fall.

Bus service is better for Shannon Park because it's closer which means shorter trips and more throughput. Shannon Park is only 2.5 km from the bridge terminal.

Quote:
- There currently is only one access route in/out of SP, fed by Victoria Road and Hwy111. Even if additional access routes are added (they would have to be), we're still limited by the capacity of the 111 and route 7. DC, on the other hand, has access from the 111 and 7, but additionally the 107, 118 and eventually the Burnside/Sackville expressway (if it ever happens). Those 3 routes would have to feed into the 111 in order to get to SP.
There will be further traffic studies and I am sure they will need to expand the road access but I doubt that Dartmouth Crossing would have been ready to handle the ~100% vehicle traffic going to and leaving the stadium as is. We cannot really say much about this without having traffic studies for both.

I have never seen a suburban facility where tens of thousands of people were able to leave in a timely fashion. Without exception it's been gridlock, often for an hour or more just to get out of the parking lot. I would not assume that proximity to one or multiple highways will solve this, but having a mix of modes might help a lot.

If Shannon Park is done well we will only see 30 or 40% of people come by vehicle and they will carpool, perhaps averaging 3 per vehicle. This works out to about 3,000 cars. And ideally there will be other stuff to do down there so people will arrive 1-3 hours before a game and not all need to immediately depart.

Last edited by someone123; Oct 30, 2018 at 5:21 PM.
     
     
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