Halifax Stadium Discussion

[c-way-dude]

Not Halifax-related, but maybe pertinent:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...loan-1.4839478

[c-way-dude]

An update is expected on October 30.

http://www.tsn.ca/naylor-s-kickoff-w...oks-1.1186568?

[Dmajackson]

Canada Football League (CFL) Stadium Proposal Update and Staff Direction

Looks like Shannon Park is the preferred location for the stadium according to the group behind the CFL Franchise.

[Colin May]

Once again we have the 'Tax Increment Financing' scam.
There was no TIF for Dartmouth Crossing. And there was no TIF for the hotel where HRM council will discuss the stadium proposal.

" Tax Incremental Financing (TIF) Model & Stadium Tax Agreement
Tax increment financing (TIF) is a public financing model that is used as a subsidy for redevelopment,
infrastructure, and debt financing. A TIF district essentially reallocates funds from property taxes to
encourage investment within the district. Any incremental tax revenues collected as a result of increases
in property values or new development go into a TIF fund (stadium reserve) and can be used by the
municipality for purposes within the TIF to promote development or provide capital financing. The scope
of the TIF District will require ongoing discussions with MFL and CLC, as landowner of Shannon Park.
Annual debt servicing costs of a stadium in the range of $170M - $190M would respectively be in the range
of $9M - $10M annually. A TIF model would be a likely revenue source to fund the debt financing of the
Stadium. TIF models do have a risk factor as they related to property values that can be affected by supply,
construction delays, build out time and absorption. The HRM Charter currently does not provide authority
to do a TIF model and would require the province to provide amendments to the Charter in order to consider
it as a funding model.
It is likely that the proposal for a stadium would also request a property tax agreement on the stadium. The
HRM Charter currently does not provide the authority to provide a tax agreement to the private sector and
would require legislative amendments. "

[Keith P.]

So it sounds like if an amendment to the HRM Charter is needed to do this, the power is with the province. The province should just say no. Any powers given to HRM are almost certainly going to be misused by our whacked-out spend-happy Council.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Colin May

There was no TIF for Dartmouth Crossing. And there was no TIF for the hotel where HRM council will discuss the stadium proposal.

There was full public financing for the library, and for a bunch of arenas, etc. The difference is some things are civic infrastructure, some aren't and some are somewhere in between. The stadium is somewhere in between.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

There was full public financing for the library, and for a bunch of arenas, etc. The difference is some things are civic infrastructure, some aren't and some are somewhere in between. The stadium is somewhere in between.

Seriously, you are comparing a library in the centre of peninsula Halifax with a stadium ????
Do you really think the central library was a mistake ?
The arenas are used every day.
The stadium is for a franchise in a league that is a financial basket case.
Back in the '80s I publicly opposed Dartmouth pouring millions into Burnside whilst at the same time ignoring downtown. At the same time the city was blocking Whebby from any commercial development of what is now Dartmouth Crossing.
Shannon Park was supposed to help create greater density as part of the Centre Plan, and all private investment.
The promoters of the CFL franchise have never revealed how much they are prepared to spend yet they are trying to get people to buy season tickets for 2021 !

[ns_kid]

I believe Shannon Park is the optimal site for a stadium development. I'll reserve judgement on the strength of MFL's proposal until we hear more at next week's council meeting. They will have to demonstrate significant private sector investment to overcome taxpayer skepticism and a jittery council. I'm a little disheartened that, after touting the diversified Ottawa Lansdowne model, MFL's proposal (based on yesterday's report) appears to have little associated commercial development attached. That's a shame, since the Shannon lands have the capacity to support it.

Certainly MFL needs a successful season ticket commitment campaign to show public support for a CFL franchise, but a stadium bid will not be justifiable unless the company can demonstrate it will serve other users and clients. They need to have been talking to other potential tenants -- like NSSAF, USports, CCAA, Halifax Wanderers, trade show/exhibitions promoters -- and offer some commitments.

[PEI highway guy]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

I believe Shannon Park is the optimal site for a stadium development. I'll reserve judgement on the strength of MFL's proposal until we hear more at next week's council meeting. They will have to demonstrate significant private sector investment to overcome taxpayer skepticism and a jittery council. I'm a little disheartened that, after touting the diversified Ottawa Lansdowne model, MFL's proposal (based on yesterday's report) appears to have little associated commercial development attached. That's a shame, since the Shannon lands have the capacity to support it.

Certainly MFL needs a successful season ticket commitment campaign to show public support for a CFL franchise, but a stadium bid will not be justifiable unless the company can demonstrate it will serve other users and clients. They need to have been talking to other potential tenants -- like NSSAF, USports, CCAA, Halifax Wanderers, trade show/exhibitions promoters -- and offer some commitments.

I wonder if Halifax could/ would support a AA baseball franchise. I know this far fetched, however, at 50-70 dates a year it would alleviate, at least partially, the stadium is seldom used argument. Travel considerations may squash this, however I know there is a AA team in Portland Me, and one in NH I believe.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

I believe Shannon Park is the optimal site for a stadium development. I'll reserve judgement on the strength of MFL's proposal until we hear more at next week's council meeting. They will have to demonstrate significant private sector investment to overcome taxpayer skepticism and a jittery council. I'm a little disheartened that, after touting the diversified Ottawa Lansdowne model, MFL's proposal (based on yesterday's report) appears to have little associated commercial development attached. That's a shame, since the Shannon lands have the capacity to support it.

The Shannon Park site was the most significant "news item" in this. I was worried they'd pick Dartmouth Crossing. Shannon Park is much better in terms of transportation options, mixed use potential, and visitor experience.

They say in the report that they only plan to purchase 15-20 acres out of a total of 95 acres for the stadium, and Canada Lands is looking to develop the whole parcel (along with Millbrook). I'm not sure how much difference it makes whether the mixed use development is led by the stadium group or somebody else.

Like I said before I don't think there's anything wrong with admitting that this is a public-private partnership and that the stadium is a piece of civic infrastructure, even if a CFL team would be privately owned.

[Dartguard]

I wonder if a stadium is built if the Tattoo would be an option . Edinburgh hosts the British Tattoo outside the Castle walls rain or shine and it always sells out . Our Tattoo is a major Tourism driver for the start of the Summer season.Perhaps an outdoor experience that sells well might pay a bill or two.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

The Shannon Park site was the most significant "news item" in this. I was worried they'd pick Dartmouth Crossing. Shannon Park is much better in terms of transportation options, mixed use potential, and visitor experience.

I could not disagree more. But we have had that debate ad nauseum in this and other threads so there is no right answer.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I could not disagree more. But we have had that debate ad nauseum in this and other threads so there is no right answer.

Shannon Park and any mixed-use site is going to provide a far better visitor experience than plopping a stadium down in a suburban power centre. Not really much debate there unless you're the kind of person that likes to drive, park, do whatever, and then leave immediately, sitting for who-knows-how-long in traffic the whole time.

Putting a stadium at Dartmouth Crossing limits your transportation options to if you're not driving you're SOL.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by PEI highway guy

I wonder if Halifax could/ would support a AA baseball franchise. I know this far fetched, however, at 50-70 dates a year it would alleviate, at least partially, the stadium is seldom used argument. Travel considerations may squash this, however I know there is a AA team in Portland Me, and one in NH I believe.

I believe it would, actually. There has always been strong support for baseball in the Halifax region and combine that with support for the Mooseheads, a minor league equivalent in the hockey world, I think it could be viable. I see a lot of people walking around with Blue Jays caps on, so we do have baseball fans here, I believe (me being one of them).

I think the only issue would likely be getting team affiliation, as the Blue Jays already have several minor league teams to draw from. The (slight) possibility of a return of the Montreal Expos could lead to some opportunities, though.

As an aside, there was some minor league-level play in the Halifax region years ago:
https://maritimebaseball.wordpress.c...be-a-ballpark/

http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/sgc-cms/...&sl=4440&pos=1

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I believe it would, actually.

I think the only issue would likely be getting team affiliation, as the Blue Jays already have several minor league teams to draw from. The (slight) possibility of a return of the Montreal Expos could lead to some opportunities, though.

An additional problem is the incongruity between football/athletics stadia and ballparks. I know it has been done before, I think the Expos played at Olympic Stadium, but it is far from ideal.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm not sure how much difference it makes whether the mixed use development is led by the stadium group or somebody else.

Like I said before I don't think there's anything wrong with admitting that this is a public-private partnership and that the stadium is a piece of civic infrastructure, even if a CFL team would be privately owned.

I think the idea of giving the ownership group the option to develop additional land commercial/multiuse probably with tax incentives, allows them to reap the benefits of a profit centre to offset the stadium cost. In effect the stadium is a loss leader to drive traffic to their profitable commercial development. Setting up in DC would drive profits into North American Development Group's pockets, not theirs.

They would do well to involve Millbrook with the ownership group. Millbrook has good business acumen and would benefit from the business venture, while the stadium ownership group would benefit from the endorsement.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

I think the idea of giving the ownership group the option to develop additional land commercial/multiuse probably with tax incentives, allows them to reap the benefits of a profit centre to offset the stadium cost. In effect the stadium is a loss leader to drive traffic to their profitable commercial development. Setting up in DC would drive profits into North American Development Group's pockets, not theirs.

They would do well to involve Millbrook with the ownership group. Millbrook has good business acumen and would benefit from the business venture, while the stadium ownership group would benefit from the endorsement.

Shannon Park is supposed to add residential density as proposed in the Centre Plan. Commercial development will be limited because it will be unable to compete with Dartmouth Crossing and Halifax Shopping Centre, and MicMac Mall is struggling in the changing landscape of shopping centres.
Why would any government give 'tax incentives' to a mall developer ?
I doubt N American Development Group would sit idly by as government incentives are offered to a competitor. Millbrook is looking at condo development.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Shannon Park and any mixed-use site is going to provide a far better visitor experience than plopping a stadium down in a suburban power centre. Not really much debate there unless you're the kind of person that likes to drive, park, do whatever, and then leave immediately, sitting for who-knows-how-long in traffic the whole time.

Putting a stadium at Dartmouth Crossing limits your transportation options to if you're not driving you're SOL.

I'm not sure what sort of mixed-use facility you're talking about. There is literally nothing there. The proposals so far have all been residential with only convenience retail. Since the feds are involved with the land there likely will be little action on development for years to come. There would be nothing there to add to the experience that wasn't part of the stadium itself.

The thought that people are not going to drive to this is ludicrous. That is what people do at football games. Ever hear of tailgating? Try toting your BBQ grill and accoutrements onto a transit bus or ferry. DC also has several hotels adjacent/nearby and plenty of eateries and other options to keep people occupied. Meanwhile any facility regardless of location could/should have dedicated shuttles to/from designated locations. This is not a Mooseheads game but one with potentially 3 times as many attendees.

[elly63]

Combining a rectilinear stadium (football, lacrosse, rugby, soccer, field hockey etc) with baseball is a bad idea from the get go. Multipurpose stadiums reached their zenith in the 70s (lingering into the 80s) with the SkyDome being one of the last vestiges of this thought process.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by elly63

Combining a rectilinear stadium (football, lacrosse, rugby, soccer, field hockey etc) with baseball is a bad idea from the get go. Multipurpose stadiums reached their zenith in the 70s (lingering into the 80s) with the SkyDome being one of the last vestiges of this thought process.

Is SkyDome (Rogers Centre) considered a failure?

Regardless, I thought it was a good idea as it could potentially provide more usage and possible profitability to the proposed stadium.

Oh well. Good luck with it.