Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[pspeid]

Disappointing, but not surprising, based on the pre-plebicite polling numbers. Of course, the issue will not go away, as the problems at P & M will go on and must be addressed within the larger scope of overall downtown redevelopment. Personal observation: funny how "common sense" happens to equal whatever one's personal opinion is.

[BigG]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

Thank god the vote is non binding, am I right?

Oh well. It just delays the inevitable.

Now that Bowman won, he'll respect the plebiscite.

But he'll only respect it, because it's a plebiscite that's non binding.

He'll later double-back and say "You know what, conditions have changed, and we will have to tear down the barriers anyway, because we found some serious issues here than previously thought."

He'll piss off the whole city, but it's going to happen, whether it be 2 years from now, or 5 years from now.

This.

[esquire]

We all knew how this would turn out. Give Winnipeggers a chance to vote for keeping the status quo and they'll take it every time.

The fact that Bowman reneged on his promise by calling the plebiscite in the first place is a clear illustration of what a weak and ineffective leader he is. A decent man for sure, but in no way a leader. A real leader like Glen Murray articulated a vision and got people excited about Portage and Main, although he couldn't take it any farther because the property owners were opposed at the time. Now they're on side but Bowman still managed to fumble it by wimping out on the issue. It'll inevitably change but Bowman just set it back by at least a decade.

The outcome is a bit of a sobering reminder that the small town mentality dominates here.

In any event, kudos to Team Open for fighting the good fight in what was the ultimate uphill battle.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Thanks for the criticism bdog. Didn’t see you anywhere volunteering your time with all the right answers.

Don't take it personally Vike. That's just my take of the campaign, and I found your tone to be much more positive than some of the other Team Open members and I appreciate your efforts.

You are correct that I didn't volunteer my time officially to Team Open, but I did convince probably at least two dozen friends, family, and colleagues to vote open. I engaged with many more than that in the discussion, and that's where a lot of my comments above came from.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Sad that a bunch of baby boomers and suburbanites get to decide the future of our city like this. You can see in the map all the people in the downtown and surrounding neighbourhoods wanted this open. Pathetic that fuckers in transcona and elmwood get to decide what’s best for a neighborhood they don’t even live in. Ohh well stupidity and selfishness have prevailed.

For those who claim to have never seen anything but positivity from Team Open, here are the types of comments I'm referring to. As I've said a few times, there's going to have a be a different approach if we're going to reach the larger public on future urban goals.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by esquire

The fact that Bowman reneged on his promise by calling the plebiscite in the first place is a clear illustration of what a weak and ineffective leader he is.

It was my understanding that the plebiscite was a council decision as all voted for it except for one.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

It was my understanding that the plebiscite was a council decision as all voted for it except for one.

It was a council decision, but a more effective leader would have never lost control of the issue in the first place. Bowman folded his hand so as to deprive Motkaluk of what would have been a big issue for her.

To Bowman, inaction on Portage and Main for the next decade is a price he was happy to pay to smooth his way to re-election.

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Sad day for the city. I personally blame the brain drain. 60 years of smart people leaving has left winnipeg with a less than stellar gene pool. Sad that a bunch of baby boomers and suburbanites get to decide the future of our city like this. You can see in the map all the people in the downtown and surrounding neighbourhoods wanted this open. Pathetic that fuckers in transcona and elmwood get to decide what’s best for a neighborhood they don’t even live in. Ohh well stupidity and selfishness have prevailed.

Brain drain. Oh come on. That 1980 thinking is long gone. Winnipeg is and has some of the smartest people and industries in Canada and the world. This had to do with people simply not caring. When you have an entire generation that grew up with it closed. 40 years of it. They know no different. When Glen Murray tried to open it. That was 20 years ago. A different bunch of people as it was only 20 years closed.

Either way. It will have to open. It needs to be repaired. The barriers have to be removed for it to be repaired. It’s not like they can just leave it as a giant sink hole will form lol.

As for those pro Jenny folks. Come on. You must all work for the Winnipeg police or something. As that’s all she cared about. She didn’t give a hoot about this city. More backwords thinking is all she gave and she would back track on everything she said.

Bowman at least isn’t stupid. He has done some good for this city. Not like Glen Murray did. But some.

If Sam Katz was still in power though. THis would have been done already and he didn’t listen to anyone except the deep pockets of the business community. And tbh he was right. That’s downtown. It’s the business owners that should have the say. Not the traffic and the people that’s don’t have a vested interest in the downtown.

This vote should have just been for the inner city and owners of downtown buildings. The suburbs shouldn’t have had a say tbh. That’s like having downtown say you cannot have Bishop fixed or the South perimeter nor Cory’s dream of a super highway to some tax evading folks in OakBank.

[wardlow]

Never underestimate the power of Council's inability to say no to big businesses pitching an idea. It's a force that's been more effective in shaping the city than voters' rabid love for inertia. It's what closed the intersection in the first place, and it's what may just open it up again. The key is for the property owners at Portage and Main to be vocal about their wish to have the intersection opened. Council wouldn't vote against that kind of pressure.

Other reasons why this intersection could very well be opened before Bowman's time as mayor ends: a human rights/accessibility challenge, coupled with finding out how much it will cost to make a closed intersection accessible (through numerous new elevators, etc).

[Urban recluse]

I suppose Bowman could very well do an about face. This may have been a ploy to get re-elected.

[optimusREIM]

This adequately sums up what I think our legitimate fears have been over the course of the campaign.

[drew]

^ highly simplistic take:

walk through downtown = yes

drive through downtown = no.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by drew

^ highly simplistic take:

walk through downtown = yes

drive through downtown = no.

My take is what the no side was saying going in. It's only the elitists that want it open. You know all those elitists that live in Point Douglas and the west end there.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by drew

^ highly simplistic take:

walk through downtown = yes

drive through downtown = no.

There should have been a second question asking how often they actually use the intersection (drive bike or walk). Frequency would have followed a similar pattern as the yes no votes, with 'most days' in green and 'once per year if I absplutely have to' in dark red

[bomberjet]

hahaha I will say I'm quite disappointed in my fellow north Winnipeg residents. However we will keep our tax dollars and 59/101 interchange too.

[Jammon]

Originally Posted by cheswick

My take is what the no side was saying going in. It's only the elitists that want it open. You know all those elitists that live in Point Douglas and the west end there.

My biggest issue with the whole drive was the complete lack of vision for P+M as a part of infrastructure funding and traffic flow. All of the P+M business owners were in- why didn't he sit down with them and come up with some vision for the future of the intersection? Something you can sell to the people of Winnipeg. Esquire hit it dead on about Bowman. He's not a leader. It's why I didn't vote for him.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Bdog

1. Condescension towards opponents

Very on the nose. I heavily stayed away from the Portage and Main discussion for this exact reason. I am not uniformed on the issue and not someone that never goes downtown or doesn't understand the issue. Matter of fact I walked through that intersection 10+ times in the last month or so. That said trying to have an honest, open, and fact based discussion on the topic had some of "Team Open" acting like bullies and trying to shut me down.

Matter of fact here are some samples of this from this very forum since the results came in:

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Originally Posted by trueviking

Thanks for the insult.

Originally Posted by Hecate

Pathetic that fuckers in transcona and elmwood get to decide what’s best for a neighborhood they don’t even live in. Ohh well stupidity and selfishness have prevailed.

Originally Posted by cheswick

Who are you kidding? The vast majority of people who voted no did zero research on the subject.

Originally Posted by esquire

The outcome is a bit of a sobering reminder that the small town mentality dominates here.

Originally Posted by drew

^ highly simplistic take:

walk through downtown = yes

drive through downtown = no.

Originally Posted by WildCake

There should have been a second question asking how often they actually use the intersection (drive bike or walk). Frequency would have followed a similar pattern as the yes no votes, with 'most days' in green and 'once per year if I absplutely have to' in dark red

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Originally Posted by Bdog

2. Traffic Study “Facts”: Team Open was adamant that everything in the traffic study was fact

My issue is there seemed to be a lot of effort to supress the information from the studies. My understanding too is the study looked only at the impact to Portage and Main and said nothing about the ripple effects the change would have to the overall flow of all modes of transportation in downtown Winnipeg.

Originally Posted by Bdog

If an engineering study came out tomorrow showing that the Oakbank Corridor was in fact needed, I wonder if this forum would defend it as fact.

Pretty sure there is a formal engineering study on the shelf someplace from the 90s saying that the traffic volumes at the time on HWY 15 needed the road to be twinned and the best course was a relocation to what was known as the Oak Bank cooridor. There were route proposals that went out and community consultations done. The project died with the double hit of the flood then the change of government.

Originally Posted by Bdog

3. Accessibility: A lot was made of accessibility in this campaign.

I work near Portage and Main and have accessibility issues on the small end of the scale. In winter the sidewalks are a far larger hazard from the poor snow clearing than Portage and Main at its worst. Hopefully the 72,000+ in favor of a more accessible downtown will be raising their voices this winter about improving snow clearing on downtown sidewalks as that is something that can easily be addressed in the short term.

Originally Posted by Bdog

6. Business support: If an intersection that’s been closed for 40 years is preventing me from developing the prime lot that I bought 5 years ago, I’m sure as hell going to be doing a lot more than signing a conditional letter of support and making a 1-minute Youtube video. But that’s just me.

No secret here. 201 Portage Ave (formerly the TD Bank building) was built after Portage and Main closed to pedestrians. It has a large, privately funded public court yard as part of the property. Further, since the courtyard first opened it was expanded with the demolition of a building (yes that should get the forum posters here all worked up). It has been hugely successful even with Portage and Main closed. Because of that courtyard the building on the northeast corner fronts mostly to the west. Changing the barriers isn't going to have any meaningful impact to what that property owner is already doing on that corner. That the others haven't done similar with their own property speaks volumes, granted the Bank of Montreal, as a heritage building, cannot change too much.

Originally Posted by Bdog

7. Not the be all end all of downtown, or Winnipeg, for that matter: Many good things have happened, and will continue to happen, in our downtown regardless of whether Portage and Main is open or closed.

This is one of the most laughable but is very on point about Team Open.


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Originally Posted by Bluenote

Cory’s dream of a super highway to some tax evading folks in OakBank.

Actually it is a plan from the provincial highways department but thanks for trying to give me the credit.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

No secret here. 201 Portage Ave (formerly the TD Bank building) was built after Portage and Main closed to pedestrians. It has a large, privately funded public court yard as part of the property. Further, since the courtyard first opened it was expanded with the demolition of a building (yes that should get the forum posters here all worked up). It has been hugely successful even with Portage and Main closed. Because of that courtyard the building on the northeast corner fronts mostly to the west. Changing the barriers isn't going to have any meaningful impact to what that property owner is already doing on that corner. That the others haven't done similar with their own property speaks volumes, granted the Bank of Montreal, as a heritage building, cannot change too much.

Say what?

That courtyard only exists because plans to put a building there fell through, most recently about a decade or so ago. It's a dressed up vacant lot that is simply awaiting development.

[optimusREIM]

If you think there hasn't been any condescension on the part of team no then you live in fantasy land.

Many people were deliberately obtuse. That's politics. Fine.

My biggest problem with the whole discussion is that it was never a problem until browaty and Lukes made it into a wedge issue.

Bottom line is that we have a resistance to change. No that's not elitism, it's a simple observation. Many on the open side simply have a vision of a city that is so much more than it currently is. It's not an unattainable thing either.

When someone concedes that this isn't the be all end all the no side loves to say: "aha! See? See? It's not necessary or a good idea." That's not the point. Like this thing in terms of its measurable impact would never be the only important part of the puzzle. But if you can find a symbol more emblematic of winnipeg's attitude I'll be waiting. Honestly nothing mobilizes the city like a threat to driving times (well maybe not, only 42 percent of the electorate voted).

Most of us team open folks aren't some chauvinist snobs who eschew the average joe. In fact, most of us are the most average Joe's around. We just believe Winnipeg can do better, and should.

Last thing: this isn't the end of the line, we will continue fighting for a better future because we believe in our city. Like seriously, Manitoba was just named one of the top 10 world wide destinations of 2019 by lonely planet, you can bet winnipeg is a big part of that designation. And I sure as hell don't want to leave a bad impression on people who are convinced to visit us by this amazing designation (it's a huge deal).
Our world reputation is on the line and we gotta uphold our image.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

That courtyard only exists because plans to put a building there fell through, most recently about a decade or so ago. It's a dressed up vacant lot that is simply awaiting development.

Not exactly accurate. Yes, the very original plan included three towers, only one of which was ever built, but the courtyard became a much more important deal. There was about a three story building net to 213 Notre Dame until about 15 years ago and around that time it was actually home to the Impark office. True it was demoed with a plan to build a Canwest broadcast centre on the city but those plans included a number of significant upgrades to the existing courtyard including a version of the video screen that is there today. Yes when Canwest was sold and significantly downsized Winnipeg operations the plans for the broadcast center were withdrawn too and the courtyard was further expanded.

The important takeway here is the courtyard existed long before the building on Notre Dame was demolished.