Shift: London's Rapid Transit Initiative

[UpstairsCranberry]

Originally Posted by Spoofy

Not sure where you're coming from on this one Jammer. Council has been considering electrifying BRT ever since the start, its definitely not desperation.

If you take a look at some of the BRT documents, electric busses actually make a lot of sense and could turn this otherwise stale and boring BRT plan into something with some actual value.

The amount they have budgeted for in the $500 million is 28 articulating buses at $28 million or slightly above or below that. That sounds like the cost of electric buses.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by tyeman200

It's stupid the city listens to a bunch of whiners. I say, they should've just done it anyways. I'd rather piss off a few people to please a bunch more and make the city easier to travel through. Sometimes it's just better to say, 'You don't like it? Well too bad we're doing it anyways.' We would have no progress anywhere if we listened and heeled to everyones complaints.

That's what I can't understand either - why city politicians cave into the complainers and nay-sayers. What are they afraid of? What are the complainers going to do if the city proceeds anyway? Sue?

Or maybe they're just afraid of losing votes...

The bottom line is that a vocal minority should not be allowed to dictate what life will be like for the majority.

[Stevo26]

As an aside, I had a look at mayoral hopeful Paul Paolatto's platform on transit.

He claims that the BRT system, as proposed, will cost too much and is 'high-risk'.

How could it 'cost too much'? London's share of the cost is just $130 million. Amortize that cost over 20 years, and the annual cost is just $6.5 million. Well within the capabilities of a city that has a $750 million annual budget. To put that cost into perspective, consider that the proposed Adelaide Street underpass project will cost $58.3 million, or almost half of London's share of BRT costs. That's just one underpass.

Paolatto seems to think that the underpass will solve all of London's traffic problems. It will help, but to think it's a cure-all is delusional.

Paolatto claims that BRT is 'high-risk'. He doesn't explain why. Does he think that the engineers and planners who have been working on the BRT project for the better part of a decade haven't factored in risk? Would the federal and provincial governments knowingly fund a project that is as risky as Paolatto thinks it is??

Overall, Paolatto's transit platform is something we've seen before. Maintain the status quo, and go for incremental, piecemeal 'improvements'. Such a tack might save money, please risk-averse business owners, but in the end, the story's the same: less gets you less.

And if BRT systems with dedicated busways are 'risky', then why is Ottawa's OCTranspo system, with its dedicated busways, so successful??

The problem is, London needs RT now, not at some future date when the opportunity to build it will have been missed. Despite all the objections, the K-W Region have built a RT system and I don't see that city sinking into the sea.

Hamilton are looking at building a LRT system because their city is in a growth position and there isn't the room to build more roads, given the city's unique geography.

Clearly, Paolatto is trying to pick up votes from the Downshift crowd and business owners who might be affected by BRT construction.

[jammer139]

Going to EV buses makes total sense.

We don't require a SHIFT-F or BRT project to start replacing our fleet of buses as they age out of service.

Their cost is now competitive with hybrids and diesel's and many transit systems have already purchased their last diesel buses. The LTC can do the same today.

"Looking into the future just a few years, it’s not hard to imagine a world where electric buses are normal and buses spewing noxious clouds of black exhaust have been largely relegated to fixtures in the history books. The transition to fully electric isn’t starting today, but rather, we are already at a point where citizens should be asking their transit authorities, “If electric buses cost less and don’t pollute, why aren’t you buying electric buses?”"

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/29/no-...re-cost-competitive-transit-buses-today/

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Stevo26

Would the federal and provincial governments knowingly fund a project that is as risky as Paolatto thinks it is??

Neither really have yet. The Liberals made a pre-election announcement, who knows if the PC's keep it. The Feds haven't made an official announcement, just some vague announcement that Mayor Brown trumpeted as meaning BRT is fully funded, and was promptly slapped down by Peter Fragiskatos who said this was not a BRT announcement. And you can be sure the Feds will not be making any announcement on BRT until the middle of next year when they can use it to maximum effect in the election campaign. And again, if they lose, all bets are off.

And despite the claims by the city that we are capped at $130 million, what happens when costs go above that? And how can we possibly say a project costs this much when you are talking about that kind of timeline?

[tyeman200]

Originally Posted by Stevo26

That's what I can't understand either - why city politicians cave into the complainers and nay-sayers. What are they afraid of? What are the complainers going to do if the city proceeds anyway? Sue?

Or maybe they're just afraid of losing votes...

The bottom line is that a vocal minority should not be allowed to dictate what life will be like for the majority.

My thoughts exactly. At this rate I feel we should have already started construction on BRT, if it wasn't for all the naysayers. I'm very doubtful now we'll get a mayor that will be for BRT, just another nobody who says they'll do something and they won't, and then get caught in a scandal, whether its your husband driving drink, stealing provincial funds or cheating on your wife with a member of council.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by tyeman200

My thoughts exactly. At this rate I feel we should have already started construction on BRT, if it wasn't for all the naysayers. I'm very doubtful now we'll get a mayor that will be for BRT, just another nobody who says they'll do something and they won't, and then get caught in a scandal, whether its your husband driving drink, stealing provincial funds or cheating on your wife with a member of council.

I'm rather doubtful too. When I look at the current crop of mayoral candidates, I see a bunch of relative nobodies who are trying to be someone.

My reading of Paolatto is that he is employing a particular kind of calculus in his efforts to get elected. That is, by deep-sixing BRT, he will pick up the votes of the Downshift people, the business owners who have businesses along or near the planned BRT lanes and the NIMBY-ite axe grinders who get their jollies from spoiling things for everyone else.

This way, he will pick up more votes overall, than he would if he supported BRT, which would alienate the groups I just described, cost him votes and possibly the election.

The only reason why BRT construction hasn't started yet is that Mayor Brown resigned in the wake of the scandal that he was involved in. That is, I think his attentions were directed elsewhere.

[MrSlippery519]

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/hist...y-hall-to-hit-pause-on-bus-rapid-transit

This plan is dead

How were things like this not already sorted, or is there more to this story?

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by MrSlippery519

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/hist...y-hall-to-hit-pause-on-bus-rapid-transit

This plan is dead

How were things like this not already sorted, or is there more to this story?

I don't think the plan is "dead", they are just pausing it. I do agree with you, but the fact that they chose to do 2 rapid transit lines at the same time, when this city has never ever done a project of this magnitude is beyond me. I said it a million times - they should have done 1 line and done it right (LRT).

[jammer139]

The BRT plan died over a year ago when the so call experts proposed a bus only tunnel on Richmond under the CP tracks leaving all other traffic with 2 lanes level crossing. To top it off they also proposed an underground bus stop at Oxford and Richmond for a cost of $60M.

Twelve year olds playing SIMCity would not be so inept.

That was the death of this so called plan.

[UpstairsCranberry]

Originally Posted by MrSlippery519

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/hist...y-hall-to-hit-pause-on-bus-rapid-transit

This plan is dead

How were things like this not already sorted, or is there more to this story?

They were. But LACH and heritage added a shit ton more properties to the list.
"City hall says it’s pausing that provincial transit review, the Transit Project Assessment Process (TPAP), because of a provincial request for more information about BRT’s potential impact on heritage buildings."

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

the fact that they chose to do 2 rapid transit lines at the same time, when this city has never ever done a project of this magnitude is beyond me. I said it a million times - they should have done 1 line and done it right (LRT).

This cannot be said enough, I really wished they would have focused on 1 line (LRT) and add from there.

[Dupcheck]

If the BRT lanes were also utilized as HOV lanes (2 or more passengers) it would have been a better approach to the traffic flow as well as BRT would have been embraced by more people that did not believe in it.

[UpstairsCranberry]

Originally Posted by Dupcheck

If the BRT lanes were also utilized as HOV lanes (2 or more passengers) it would have been a better approach to the traffic flow as well as BRT would have been embraced by more people that did not believe in it.

But that would not be BRT, it would be buses in HOV lanes.

[ssiguy]

I have to admit that I`m glad the whole plan is dead. I think it was ill conceived from the very beginning. It will serve too few people, will not greatly increase commute times,{and many Londoners would see their commute times INCREASE}, it effects too many properties, would play havoc on London`s already pathetic and strained road system, had limited public support and almost none from the business community, was designed from the top down, doesn`t take into account London unique and solid built urban form, and almost seemed designed for the sole purpose of saying `we have rapid transit too` to placate pressure that KW got it`s act together.

[UpstairsCranberry]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I have to admit that I`m glad the whole plan is dead.

It's not dead.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I think it was ill conceived from the very beginning.

Okay.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

It will serve too few people

It runs on most used and most congested transit line in the city.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

will not greatly increase commute times,{and many Londoners would see their commute times INCREASE}. would play havoc on London`s already pathetic and strained road system

90 secs on Richmond is 'greatly'? Considering most of the other routes will see improvements to the roads, and will benefit from the transit prioritization of lights, commutes will improve along Oxford and Wellington. Who uses King east of Wellington? I hate coming across king wait at red lights for zero traffic. On William Street, I have seen Police car put their lights in order to turn left onto King just the immediately turn them off again. Apparently, that's not allowed, but when you're the law....

Originally Posted by ssiguy

it effects too many properties

Wait till they widen Wonderland Rd and Fanshawe Park Rd to 6 lanes.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

had limited public support and almost none from the business community

We don't really have any numbers on this. Just NIMBY's yelling the loudest.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

was designed from the top down

Umm, of course? lol!

Originally Posted by ssiguy

doesn`t take into account London unique and solid built urban form

Umm, it plans to build it up even more then it is now.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

and almost seemed designed for the sole purpose of saying `we have rapid transit too` to placate pressure that KW got it`s act together.

No, it's buses are always late and really crowded and a higher number of buses and exclusive right-of-ways can solve this for those lines that are at capacity.

[jammer139]

Very interesting CBC story on the Belleville's Bus hailing pilot last night.


Article as well - https://business.financialpost.com/techn...ches-fixed-routes-for-bus-hailing-system

[UpstairsCranberry]

Originally Posted by jammer139

Very interesting CBC story on the Belleville's Bus hailing pilot last night.


Article as well - https://business.financialpost.com/techn...ches-fixed-routes-for-bus-hailing-system

I was thinking this for the smaller muncipalities. Seems like a great solution.

The Paratransit here in London needs 24hr notice I think. It needs to be updates to be more modernize.

An arrile in the LFP said London shpuld do what Kingston has done. Yet London already has that. The issue is is that London is more tham twice the size of Kimgston with 4x the ridership, or 2x per capita.

These are not replacement for transit having it's own right-of-way, which is something Lo don meed to not have buses more than a 1/2 late.

[Dupcheck]

Originally Posted by UpstairsCranberry

But that would not be BRT, it would be buses in HOV lanes.

Call it whatever: BRT/HOV2/HOV3/. Seeing underutilized and empty bus lanes when cars will be piling up in traffic waiting on the other lanes is not a great solution either. We need to maximize the flow efficiency in order to not have traffic congestion.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Dupcheck

Call it whatever: BRT/HOV2/HOV3/. Seeing underutilized and empty bus lanes when cars will be piling up in traffic waiting on the other lanes is not a great solution either. We need to maximize the flow efficiency in order to not have traffic congestion.

I agree up to a certain extent. If there's so many cars in the HOV lane that the bus in it does not make the light, that causes a delay to the bus system.

It's hard to consider bus lanes as a dedicated line like LRT / RT rails because... they aren't. They're just pavement like any other road lane just with special paint and restrictions. Our proposed lines are not 'busways' or bus-only roads like other cities such as MiWay in Mississauga.