Calgary International Airport II

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by BlaineN

That makes sense. I suppose if Westjet branches out into international it could move the numbers back up, if they don't go for a route already serviced by AC.

I haven't looked into this at all, but is international down at other non-AC hub airports? (YEG, YOW, YWG, etc..)

What international? Most international traffic in Canada goes thru YVR and especially YYZ, and now YUL is a major player (they have more international than domestic) due to AC's massive expansion.

The secondary airports have sun destinations and little else. YOW has LHR and had a seasonal to FRA. YEG has flights to AMS and KEF and seasonal LGW. YWG is seasonal LGW. These are smaller airports though - YEG is half the size of YYC in terms of pax and YOW is half the size of YEG! YWG is the same as YOW. These are not hub airports. The hubs in Canada are YYZ > YVR > YUL > YYC. Although YYC and YUL are close, YUL is at least 10% bigger and has way more international traffic.

[msmariner]

It’s funny that the numbers at YYC for domestic and overall are very impressive. Though all people here are talking about are the small drop in international. Too me all international is an ego boost. I couldn’t care less if they are down a few percentage points. If yyc went up 7-10 % a year overall we going to be a pretty busy airport in5 years

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by Acey

Say what? International is literally all that matters. Losing NRT for example is a far bigger deal than AC starting mainline PSP for MANY reasons. Additional LAS and PSP runs do nothing for growing Calgary as a global hub on the world stage. That's why we care.

Agreed. YYC is growing nicely but we need to increase international beyond the dismal 10% of traffic and trans-border 20%. That's where you get the tourism boost and the influence as an international city... and our growth as hub will be limited if we can get everyone from Canada and the U.S. here but can't send them out into the world.

[msmariner]

Originally Posted by Acey

Say what? International is literally all that matters. Losing NRT for example is a far bigger deal than AC starting mainline PSP for MANY reasons. Additional LAS and PSP runs do nothing for growing Calgary as a global hub on the world stage. That's why we care.

Like I said it’s an ego thing. We’re not a global hub (heck we’re not even a AC hub anymore). We do bat way above our airport size in terms of international traffic though. The list of carriers and locations we can get too is amazing for an 17 million passenger airport. Not many our size can boost that. I just think we should be happy that our domestic and transboarder traffic is doing so well. The blip in international will correct itself in time

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by msmariner

Like I said it’s an ego thing. We’re not a global hub (heck we’re not even a AC hub anymore). We do bat way above our airport size in terms of international traffic though. The list of carriers and locations we can get too is amazing for an 17 million passenger airport. Not many our size can boost that. I just think we should be happy that our domestic and transboarder traffic is doing so well. The blip in international will correct itself in time

I agree with you that it's an ego thing, and yes, other cities with a 1M population envy YYC's foreign lineup, but Acey is also right in that destinations like NRT or LHR are far more important than PSP or PHX.

As for global hubs, Canada only has one: YYZ

YVR caters mainly to Asia and Australia, YUL to Europe, ME and North Africa. YYZ has it all. Global.

YYC will never be a global hub. Same as YUL or YVR. But it is important to sustain markets like NRT and LHR year round. (Daily year round at best). Airlines that cancel or temporarily suspend services to those alpha cities is never a good thing. So losing international non stop passengers, which is what Alberta's airports are seeing, isn't a good thing. WS's 787s can't come soon enough. YYC's only saving grace it seems.

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

I agree with you that it's an ego thing, and yes, other cities with a 1M population envy YYC's foreign lineup, but Acey is also right in that destinations like NRT or LHR are far more important than PSP or PHX.

YYC will never be a global hub. Same as YUL or YVR.

YYC won't be a global hub and we punch above our weight for our size on O&D for sure.

For now we have year-round for widebodies -
FRA, LHR (AC)
LGW (WS)
AMS (KL)
PEK (HU)

Summer Seasonal
LHR (BA)
NRT (AC)
ZRH (WK)
FRA (DE)
AMS, LGW (TS)

Winter Seasonal
HNL, OGG (WS)

I suspect BA's LHR will return year-round. I can see WS offering one destination in Europe (CDG seems most likely) and Asia (PVR, HND or NRT). They will also move LGW (in all likelihood) to a 789 at least in summer.

[msmariner]

Originally Posted by Acey

This isn't a "feel good" story about us already punching above our weight on the international stage. If you want to feel good about what we have, that's great... leave the analysis to everybody else.

Well I will have to congratulate you on your job as yyc Analyst... or is it for WS or AC. If not your just an arm chair one like the rest of us

There are many smart and very enlightening posters on this site that I enjoy reading, you being one of them. Fortunately most of them are polite and tolerate other thoughts other than their own. You on the other hand are the most condescending ahole towards others on here. You don’t know as much as you think. You wonder why you are by yourself on this site most days!

[Mazrim]

I am part of the international problem. I chose to go through YVR so I could get on a 787 instead of an old 767. Sorry!

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I am part of the international problem. I chose to go through YVR so I could get on a 787 instead of an old 767. Sorry!

No need to apologise for that. That's just a smart thing to do.

[zahav]

Originally Posted by msmariner

Like I said it’s an ego thing. We’re not a global hub (heck we’re not even a AC hub anymore). We do bat way above our airport size in terms of international traffic though. The list of carriers and locations we can get too is amazing for an 17 million passenger airport. Not many our size can boost that. I just think we should be happy that our domestic and transboarder traffic is doing so well. The blip in international will correct itself in time

Not meaning to stir the pot (really I am not, I like YYC for real).. but it really punches above its weight in domestic traffic only, it isn't amazing for a 17 million airport in general. YVR in 2010 had the same overall traffic as YYC did last year (under 17 million) but even then had many of the main international airlines it has today (there have been a lot of notable additions since 2010 for sure, but in 2010 it still had lots and lots of big ones). In fact it had most of those big airlines and destinations even when traffic was in the 14-15 million range too. That would've been a good example of punching above its weight for destinations and airlines. YYC has a huge roster of domestic and transborder destinations through WS really

[YYCFlier]

... or even other Canadian airports. YEG has half the pax traffic, and YOW has half of YEG's traffic, yet the metro Edmonton and Ottawa areas are only a little smaller than Calgary. And yet, we are still mostly holding our own or growing even with a terrible recession.

In YVR's case a huge part of this is just geography. YVR has all the Australia and Asia traffic because it's geographically closest to those centres.

YUL is only 10% larger than YYC in pax traffic but has a metro at least twice as large. Difference is YUL has much more international traffic than domestic, and the reverse is true for YYC. This is largely driven by Montreal being a draw for the francophone world, but also because AC has decided to make YUL a larger hub.

We will see the same for WS. Once WS has all its widebodies, we'll see increased international routes via YYC (maybe even before then if rumours are true). My hope is for one new Asian route and one new Europe route, and hopefully little to no overlap with existing carriers.

[CloudInspector]

Originally Posted by Acey

If we're using that metric, then the fact that YYC is a 17 million airport is where it punches above its weight, at a metro of ~1.4 million. YVR at 17 million in 2010 would have been a ~2.2 million metro.

From my perspective, when somebody says YYC punches above its weight, I think of our Europe and Asia service compared to other North American metros of similar size. JAX, MEM, RDU, MKE, RIC, SDF. Our total pax count is not a number that crosses my mind in the context of that argument, though we handily beat each of them multiple times over.

Absolutely. I also think Calgary plays a much bigger role in Canada than say, Milwaukee does for the states.

[LO 044]

Do any of you know how much connecting traffic YEG provides YYC? I guess i could just add up the flights from YEG to YVR, YYC and YYZ to determine how much of YEG's traffic is funneled through those airports but it would be interesting to know where YYC would be without YEG traffic. I believe YYZ obviously and YVR probably could stand on their own 2 feet without much connecting traffic but i'm always curious about YYC. Where does the majority of connecting traffic come from at YYC? My guess of course is YEG.

I can say that when i try to book flights to Europe it is amazing how many connections AC tries to push through via YVR instead of YYC. Not sure that is a sign but a general observation on AC's booking system.

And in terms of WS, any flights to the south seem to be evenly split between YVR and YYC for connections. We flew YEG-YVR-SAN-YYC-YEG and YEG-SFO-YVR-YEG recently. Not by choice but by convenience and price.

[FormerWingTipper]

Originally Posted by YYCFlier

I can see WS offering one destination in Europe (CDG seems most likely) and Asia (PVR, HND or NRT).

I always find this amusing. What makes you think Westjet can make a YYC-Asia route work if a carrier like Air Canada can't make a YYC-Asia route work, even with it being a YYZYYCNRT through flight? Unless you mean that Westjet will copy Air Canada and only offer summer seasonal service to Asia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by LO 044

Do any of you know how much connecting traffic YEG provides YYC? I guess i could just add up the flights from YEG to YVR, YYC and YYZ to determine how much of YEG's traffic is funneled through those airports but it would be interesting to know where YYC would be without YEG traffic. I believe YYZ obviously and YVR probably could stand on their own 2 feet without much connecting traffic but i'm always curious about YYC. Where does the majority of connecting traffic come from at YYC? My guess of course is YEG.

I can say that when i try to book flights to Europe it is amazing how many connections AC tries to push through via YVR instead of YYC. Not sure that is a sign but a general observation on AC's booking system.

And in terms of WS, any flights to the south seem to be evenly split between YVR and YYC for connections. We flew YEG-YVR-SAN-YYC-YEG and YEG-SFO-YVR-YEG recently. Not by choice but by convenience and price.

Well, Calgary-Edmonton flights are less than a million available seats a year, last time I added them up, maybe less than 700,000 a year. Lower than it was in the 70s and 80s (a lot of industrial airport traffic was replaced by driving, at least if you follow driving vs. bus vs. train vs. flying).

It makes sense that it drives you to other hubs, as Calgary's international flights for AC seem to be there to capture Calgary's high yield passengers who aren't as brand loyal when they need to make connections.

[zahav]

I agree 100%, where YYC punches well above it's weight is in its overall traffic numbers, which are exceptional for a City its size, And the whole "so much of the traffic is from somewhere else" is totally irrelevant, just like the whole geography thing for YVR. Whatever the reason doesn't matter, traffic is traffic and if an airport is getting it (regardless of the reason) it counts.

My point was that in regards to variety of destinations and airlines, YVR punches above its weight more and always has even as a 14 million airport, and YYC punches above its weight in total traffic. And really the population comparison with US cities is not appropriate, the function and importance of any random 1 million city in US is totally different than the function of Canada's 4th largest city, even if the population happens to be the same. It would be like comparing Calgary to a million size City in China, it is totally off

[Cage]

Originally Posted by FormerWingTipper

I always find this amusing. What makes you think Westjet can make a YYC-Asia route work if a carrier like Air Canada can't make a YYC-Asia route work, even with it being a YYZYYCNRT through flight? Unless you mean that Westjet will copy Air Canada and only offer summer seasonal service to Asia.

AC 9/10 are profitable for AC, however with limited slots in NRT, they have to carefully chose the Canadian cities. The best options to serve China are YVR and YUL to NRT and YYZ to HND (AC also has codeshare with NH on YVR-HND. Finally, if AC pushes traffic over YVR they can take pax to final destination rather than putting dollars in NH pocket.

All the above said, the first point is paramount, YYC-NRT is profitable. So WS launching NRT from YYC is a good plan, especially since AC is likely to hand them the route.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by zahav

. It would be like comparing Calgary to a million size City in China, it is totally off

Indeed. I was in the city of Huizhou for work this week (a city of 2m+ in Guangdong, about an hour by train from the provincial capital of Guangzhou) and while it had its own airport, it was the smallest airport I'd ever been to in China. No jetways, 5 stands for 737/A320 size jets, and maybe 25 passenger flights a day tops. Most air traffic in the region goes through the enormous airports at Shenzhen and Guangzhou.

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by FormerWingTipper

I always find this amusing. What makes you think Westjet can make a YYC-Asia route work if a carrier like Air Canada can't make a YYC-Asia route work, even with it being a YYZYYCNRT through flight? Unless you mean that Westjet will copy Air Canada and only offer summer seasonal service to Asia.

The fundamentals are completely different. YYC is AC's smallest hub; YYC-NRT is all O&D traffic. Very few people are going to connect in YYC when they can get a nice 787 out of YVR or YUL. In addition, no one in the east is going to connect in YYC for a crappy old 767. In fact, many business travellers in YYC avoid this route and connect in YVR to get the better bird. YYC is bordering on focus city status for AC.

YYC is, on the other hand, WS's largest hub. There are many routes WS offers in YYC AC does not, except for the ultra-profitable ones. It can do this because it routes a lot of connecting traffic via YYC. If YYC-NRT works it will definitely not be O&D; they will be targetting a high amount of connecting traffic to fill the plane or it will fly empty. We saw in the winter schedule they continue to consolidate in YYC.

I don't think WS will have much trouble convincing leisure travellers to connect thru YYC because they will be sensitive to price. What will be interesting is whether or not they can fill their premium (and thus much more profitable) cabins with business travellers.

The nice thing is that WS can also scale the YYC operations as needed - for example, they can offer an NRT route daily, but they can alter the home airport, increasing YVR and YYZ and lowering YYC if needed if they are struggling with that routing. This is the strategy they use for LGW and it seems to work for them. We may see year round service in some new markets from WS, but it won't be daily or they will increase in summer. I think YYC-NRT is totally doable for WS, I would just hate if they did because it will kill the AC route. Too much competition on their routes means AC abandons YYC and dehubs it.

[s211]

Originally Posted by zahav

I agree 100%, where YYC punches well above it's weight is in its overall traffic numbers, which are exceptional for a City its size, And the whole "so much of the traffic is from somewhere else" is totally irrelevant, just like the whole geography thing for YVR. Whatever the reason doesn't matter, traffic is traffic and if an airport is getting it (regardless of the reason) it counts.

The least you could do is say a very big "thank you" to Edmonton.