Barrhaven LRT | Proposed

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I would assume they are talking about the 8 stations shown on the TMP (shown below).

Those are:

• Meadowlands/Tallwood
• Medhurst/Knoxdale
• West Hunt Club
• Fallowfield
• Longfields
• Strandherd
• Marketplace
• Barrhaven Centre

It would be nice if they could merge the last 3 stops into 2 stops somehow (maybe shift Strandherd station further south and delete Marketplace station, possibly replacing it with a station between Highbury Park Dr and Berrigan).

I don't see why you think there are adding new stops. The would actually be removing the following 4 stops used by the 95 et al. (which is a good thing IMHO):

• Woodroffe / David
• Woodroffe / Norice
• Woodroffe / Majestic
• Woodroffe / Nepean Sportsplex

I based myself off the city wide 2019 map on the read4rail website. Those 4 stations weren't on there.

http://www.octranspo.com/ready4rail/system_map_zoom

Not sure why I didn't think to check the TMP.

I agree Marketplace, with a shifted Standherd towards the south, and maybe Knoxdale are not necessary.

As for Kanata, I see TOD potential à la Burnaby between Terry Fox and Palladium. The need for Palladium is largely dependent on what happens to the CTC. If the Sens end up staying in Kanata or they redevelop it into a high density neighborhood, a station will be needed. A park-and-ride could also be added to serve the Stittville area. Stations between Terry Fox and Palladium can be added as the land develops.

If they build low density suburban housing, then no. Don't extend it further than Terry Fox.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don't understsnd why municipal governments are not forced into "writ period" mode like the federal and provincial governments. This is blatant electioneering using city resources.

They supposedly are, but it's completely fallen apart this fall.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I based myself off the city wide 2019 map on the read4rail website. Those 4 stations weren't on there.

http://www.octranspo.com/ready4rail/system_map_zoom

None of the maps show any of the 7 stops between Baseline and Fallowfield, probably because they are just bus stops on the side of the road (with or without a shelter) and not full stations.

I agree Marketplace, with a shifted Standherd towards the south, and maybe Knoxdale are not necessary.

I think Knoxdale is a good location for a station. The station would likely be in the field between Knoxdale and the railway bridge. Optimally the West Hunt Club station would be south of Hunt Club so that the south end of the station aligns with the Sportsplex. With those two station locations, they would be about 900m apart. Knoxdale would only be about 800m from Meadowlands but the rail line between the two acts as a significant barrier.

As for Kanata, I see TOD potential à la Burnaby between Terry Fox and Palladium.

I don't see Kanata being analogous to Burnaby . Metrotown (the hub of Burnaby's density) is only about 10km from downtown Vancouver. Terry Fox is double that distance from downtown Ottawa (and you are talking west of that). Lincoln Fields is more analogous to Metrotown. I would compare Kanata to Surrey (without the same reputation). Yes there is some density in Surrey, but it is mostly single family homes (like Kanata). Surrey also has a lot of local employment, just like Kanata.

The need for Palladium is largely dependent on what happens to the CTC. If the Sens end up staying in Kanata or they redevelop it into a high density neighborhood, a station will be needed.

I agree what happens to the CTC will effect things, but either way I don't see extending the Confederation line to it as important either way.

If the Sens stay in Kanata yes the demand is high when they have a home game (or there is another major event) but the Sens only have 41 regular season home games. When you add in pre and post season games, that might jump up to 50 home games (an average of 1 day a week). As for other events, I would guess that there are maybe 100 large performances (though most of those don't have the same capacity as a game). That is 2 days a week. So the question is, do we spend $640 million to provide a direct connection for 18,000 people (assuming they all use it) 3 days a week?

If the Sens do move, Melnyk says he has a plan for the CTC. We don't know what it is, but I don't think he would want to distract from the condo development in LeBretton. I suspect he will use the CTC for some other entertainment facility. While it too will have transportation needs, I can't imagine it having the same draw as it currently does. So if that isn't worth an extension, its replacement certainly won't be.

Even if the CTC is replaced with high density housing, a large percentage of residents will be working in Kanata, where the "LRT" would be of minimal benefit.

A park-and-ride could also be added to serve the Stittville area. Stations between Terry Fox and Palladium can be added as the land develops.

Stittsville commuters are better served by Connexion bus service to Kanata, not another park and ride. Those are best for rural residents who can't feasibly be served by buses. If we do need more park and ride space, expand the ones we have (up?), don't build new ones.

[jchilds72]

Knoxdale does have potential as a transfer point though, if the existing rail line is ever used for transit purposes.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by jchilds72

Knoxdale does have potential as a transfer point though, if the existing rail line is ever used for transit purposes.

As discussed elsewhere, it is highly unlikely that it will be used anytime in the next several decades. If and when it does, I agree, but that on its own isn't justification for a station.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I based myself off the city wide 2019 map on the read4rail website. Those 4 stations weren't on there.

http://www.octranspo.com/ready4rail/system_map_zoom

Not sure why I didn't think to check the TMP.

I agree Marketplace, with a shifted Standherd towards the south, and maybe Knoxdale are not necessary.

I'm not sure why there would not be a stop at Knoxdale/Medurst, considering it is a resonably dense residential area (particularly on the east side) and it is currently a busy stop on the #95.

For stop spacing, I think it would make more sense to have the stop south of Knoxdale so it is more central to the residential area north of West Hunt Club.

The West Hunt Club station could be shifted south so it serves the Sportsplex.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I'm not sure why there would not be a stop at Knoxdale/Medurst, considering it is a resonably dense residential area (particularly on the east side) and it is currently a busy stop on the #95.

For stop spacing, I think it would make more sense to have the stop south of Knoxdale so it is more central to the residential area north of West Hunt Club.

The West Hunt Club station could be shifted south so it serves the Sportsplex.

I terms of density, it looks similar to Orleans Boulevard with slightly more TOD potential with the gas station on the corner.

Marketplace is really the one that bothers me. Way too close to Standherd and Town Centre.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

For comparison, Toronto's Transit City LRTs had stop spacing that were 300-500m with only ~800m for the tunneled section under Eglinton. I'd argue that Ottawa's stop spacing is actually ridiculously high (look at the 1700m between Cyrville and Blair), especially given Ottawa's climate. It makes for fast travel. But then you get a much longer bus ride, lower bus frequencies and larger bus terminals. I really wish Ottawa would target average LRT stop spacing at 800-900m. With nothing greater than 1200m (Bayview to Tunney's at present).

This Barrhaven proposal is pretty reasonable. Arguably just one stop too many.

I think the stop spacing between downtown and Lincoln Fields is too far. They should have replaced Westboro station with two stations at Island Park and Churchill, and built a new station in Mechanicsville between Bayview and Tunney's. The Westboro/Hintonburg/Mechanicsville area has far too few stations given how dense it is.

[McC]

Hintonburg and Mechanichsville could have easily been served better by simply moving Tunney's to between Parkdale and Holland, with entrances at both ends. That would have also strengthened the case for a station around Island Park.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I'm not sure why there would not be a stop at Knoxdale/Medurst, considering it is a resonably dense residential area (particularly on the east side) and it is currently a busy stop on the #95.

I agree it should have a stop, but the fact that it is a stop on the #95 isn't a great argument. I don't think all of the stops on Woodroffe should be converted to stations. Currently they are planning for every other one, which is about right IMHO.

For stop spacing, I think it would make more sense to have the stop south of Knoxdale so it is more central to the residential area north of West Hunt Club.

It might make some sense, but it would be ridiculously expensive since they own the land north of Knoxdale but south is all developed (it will be interesting to see how they propose to build the stretch between Knoxdale and West Hunt Club. The furthest south I can see the station is to have the southern end of the platform under Knoxdale so that they can have an entrance on the south side of the road. That is unlikely though as it is easy enough to cross Knoxdale at the crosswalk and moving the platform a few meters won't make much of a difference but would add a lot to the cost.

The West Hunt Club station could be shifted south so it serves the Sportsplex.

I wouldn't shift it too far south. The Sportsplex is in the northern part of the greenbelt, so while it is a destination on its own, there isn't anything else within walking distance for the station to serve. By having the platform between the north entrance to the Sportsplex and West Hunt Club, it is an easy walk to the front entrance of the Sportsplex yet still a short walk for anyone taking a bus along Hunt Club (they could even have a bus loop at the station).

As for the driveway into the experimental farm, I would re-align it (again) to be aligned with Vaan Dr.

[jchilds72]

There could be the soundstage they're proposing to build at the farm by the time they build LRT.

[JM1]

I think people have been mislead by the fact that we are getting a "train". The LRT will not be more comfortable for long commutes than buses because the seats are the same. The interiors of our LRTs will feel just as cramped as busses. While some cities leave more floor space in their LRTs (e.g. three seats across -- 2+1), our LRTs will be four seats across. Also, because we are using Citadis, the wheels will cramp the interior space further (this is not an issue for models that "hide" the wheels in the jointed sections).

We have taken such bad decisions in buying a vehicle that is really only suited to short trip street traffic (where low floors are useful) and using it for suburban commuting (where high floors might have created more comfort for longer travel times).

That mistake has been made for Orleans and mostly for Kanata now. Are we going to repeat it for Barrhaven?

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by JM1

I think people have been mislead by the fact that we are getting a "train". The LRT will not be more comfortable for long commutes than buses because the seats are the same. The interiors of our LRTs will feel just as cramped as busses. While some cities leave more floor space in their LRTs (e.g. three seats across -- 2+1), our LRTs will be four seats across. Also, because we are using Citadis, the wheels will cramp the interior space further (this is not an issue for models that "hide" the wheels in the jointed sections).

We have taken such bad decisions in buying a vehicle that is really only suited to short trip street traffic (where low floors are useful) and using it for suburban commuting (where high floors might have created more comfort for longer travel times).

That mistake has been made for Orleans and mostly for Kanata now. Are we going to repeat it for Barrhaven?

Wow, it's like you've never taken the Trillium line and noticed the difference in ride quality from a bus. The Confederation Line will yet be a magnitude better with smooth, quiet electric engines and automated acceleration and deceleration.

No side to side swaying. No emissions. Cheaper to operate. Where have you been all these years?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JM1

I think people have been mislead by the fact that we are getting a "train". The LRT will not be more comfortable for long commutes than buses because the seats are the same. The interiors of our LRTs will feel just as cramped as busses. While some cities leave more floor space in their LRTs (e.g. three seats across -- 2+1), our LRTs will be four seats across. Also, because we are using Citadis, the wheels will cramp the interior space further (this is not an issue for models that "hide" the wheels in the jointed sections).

We have taken such bad decisions in buying a vehicle that is really only suited to short trip street traffic (where low floors are useful) and using it for suburban commuting (where high floors might have created more comfort for longer travel times).

That mistake has been made for Orleans and mostly for Kanata now. Are we going to repeat it for Barrhaven?

Ignorant tosh. And that's being kind.

The Citadis is a pretty large LRV actually. Substantially larger than Bombardier Flexitys being procured in Toronto for example.

Next, having more seats is hardly a downside, especially for the community that is the terminus. The people who should be worried about standing room aren't Barrhaven, Orleans or Kanata. It's riders inside the Greenbelt.

Finally, it's ridiculous that you actually think these will be less comfortable than bus. Level-boarding, uniformity across vehicles, multiple doors to board, smoother acceleration, higher average speeds and an overall lower trip time, etc. I'd like to know why exactly you think a bus would be better than this.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's riders inside the Greenbelt.

I thought, once stage 2 finishes, they are going to run some trains between Lincoln Fields and Hurdman during peak. To make sure that some people did get seats inside the belt.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by corynv

I thought, once stage 2 finishes, they are going to run some trains between Lincoln Fields and Hurdman during peak. To make sure that some people did get seats inside the belt.

Good Day.

That would have been viable with the plan in Phase 1 to build a pocket track just east of Hurdman, but they did not build it in the space that seems reserved for it.
So unless they build it in in Phase 2, then such short-turning would depend on really fast switchwork at Hurdman, which I kinda doubt is in the cards.
So....... short-turning for downtown service is kinda in open question.

EnJoy!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ignorant tosh. And that's being kind.

The Citadis is a pretty large LRV actually. Substantially larger than Bombardier Flexitys being procured in Toronto for example.

Next, having more seats is hardly a downside, especially for the community that is the terminus. The people who should be worried about standing room aren't Barrhaven, Orleans or Kanata. It's riders inside the Greenbelt.

Finally, it's ridiculous that you actually think these will be less comfortable than bus. Level-boarding, uniformity across vehicles, multiple doors to board, smoother acceleration, higher average speeds and an overall lower trip time, etc. I'd like to know why exactly you think a bus would be better than this.

I don't agree with JM1's conclusion, but I get where he is coming from. The trains won't have comfy padded seats with lots of leg room like you see on a VIA Rail train, but I don't think we need (or even want) those as maintenance costs would have been higher. I don't know if any Metro system that has padded seats.

I also agree with him that going with low floor vehicles was a bit silly, though we thought we were building an LRT system. Now that we have decided to go with a light metro system, higher floor vehicles would have been a better match, but the LRT vehicles won't be a bad fit, they just don't have the potential for as high a capacity. Calgary, for example, is now buying cars with sideways facing seats around the perimeter of the cars. With this configuration seated capacity is only slightly lower, but there is much more standing room. We can't really do that because of the wheel wells.


from CTV Calgary - January 15, 2016


DARREN BROWN / OTTAWA CITIZEN - February 21, 2018

For comparison, here is what the old C-Train cars looked like

from barraclou.com

[lrt's friend]

I am not a big fan of sideways seating. I think more susceptible people will be prone to motion sickness with their sight line being outside. Also, it will be more difficult to see where you are going with your back to the windows.

[McC]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am not a big fan of sideways seating. I think more susceptible people will be prone to motion sickness with their sight line being outside. Also, it will be more difficult to see where you are going with your back to the windows.

but you're facing the other bank of windows, and the alternative is that at least half the seats will always be facing contre-sense, which is even worse for folks who are prone to motion sickness...

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by JM1

I think people have been mislead by the fact that we are getting a "train". The LRT will not be more comfortable for long commutes than buses because the seats are the same. The interiors of our LRTs will feel just as cramped as busses.

Busses are unbearable for most distances. The stop-start acceleration and braking nature alone is enough to get me excited for trains. Seats don't matter to me...as long as i'm not moving for ten seconds, then stopping, then moving for five seconds and stopping again, then moving for thirty seconds then stopping abruptly. It's nauseating. With trains you get a steady speed and a steady stop, consistent for the whole trip, every trip. I know when the train is going to stop and can brace for it.