Winnipeg | Downtown | True North Square | U/C

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

And that's huge in my book. The standard today with any major league sports franchises is to blackmail the taxpayers into funding an arena/stadium. Look at Edmonton, Calgary, Detroit (did the Red Wings even have to threaten to leave or did the bankrupt City jump at the chance to sink even deeper into debt?)

And that's something that a lot of Ottawa fans don't seem to get. The Sens owner, Melnyk, has done a lot to irritate fans over the last few years (responsible for the loss of Alfredsson and Karlsson, prone to outbursts where he says things he probably doesn't mean but falls short of apologizing (see he's interview during the NHL Classic Alumni Game in 2017) and he's done some bad decisions regarding the team's executive branch over the years. But he's been adamant that he will not ask for any public money to build his new arena downtown. I think we need to give him credit for that. If he were to sell, which is what a lot of Sens fans call for, who's to say the next guy won't hold the team at ransom?

Back to the article, it's interesting that they also take a shot at the Bluebombers and their new stadium. As far as I know, no CFL team has ever built their own venue. They just don't make anywhere near enough money to do that.

The worst thing is the article seems to blame TNSE for taking TIF money for TNS. They are 100% separate entities, TNSE owning an arena, a couple other venues and a couple hockey team. True North Real Estate Development is the organization behind TNS and received TIF funding. None of this money finds it's way to TNSE and has even less t do with the Jets.

The only thing linking these two organizations is Chipman owning part, probably most, of both businesses. The City and Province offer TIF's in certain circumstances and they felt these projects deserved the funding. Whether right or wrong it's the governments responsibility and they should be held accountable for giving, not TNRED for accepting. If I have a box of Oreos and you ask me for one, if I say yes is it your fault for taking one?

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Click bait.

Yeah it's silly that we're even discussing this. Sports writers should probably stick to sports and not write about stuff that's so far out of their wheelhouse.

[ywgwalk]

Originally Posted by dmacc

The worst thing is the article seems to blame TNSE for taking TIF money for TNS. They are 100% separate entities, TNSE owning an arena, a couple other venues and a couple hockey team. True North Real Estate Development is the organization behind TNS and received TIF funding. None of this money finds it's way to TNSE and has even less t do with the Jets.

The only thing linking these two organizations is Chipman owning part, probably most, of both businesses. The City and Province offer TIF's in certain circumstances and they felt these projects deserved the funding. Whether right or wrong it's the governments responsibility and they should be held accountable for giving, not TNRED for accepting. If I have a box of Oreos and you ask me for one, if I say yes is it your fault for taking one?

All indications from their website is that TNRED is a subsidary of TNSE.

http://www.tnse.com/our-portfolio/#tnred

[esquire]

Originally Posted by windypeg

Yeah it's silly that we're even discussing this. Sports writers should probably stick to sports and not write about stuff that's so far out of their wheelhouse.

The article obviously isn't about the game of hockey itself, but it's fair to discuss the bigger picture.

Let's face it, TNSE uses hockey as a means to extract a lot of tax money from the public. Of course, you can make a reasonable argument that it's worth it in the long run and we as citizens get back something for the money we spend, both tangible (tax revenue, increased economic activity) and intangible (great PR and a civic status symbol). But it's by no means a slam dunk either way... it's certainly a debatable point.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

I wonder when the Food Court opens?

Has there been any word as to who will be in the food court?

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by ywgwalk

All indications from their website is that TNRED is a subsidary of TNSE.

http://www.tnse.com/our-portfolio/#tnred

Well 🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵 🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵, I guess I'm wrong about that.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by BigG

Article about TNSE. Title got me.

https://www.arcticicehockey.com/2018/9/2...s-blue-bombers-winnipeg-tax-payer-funded

Arctic Ice Hockey is the worst garbage wannabe's there is. They had beef with TNSE and probably still do because they weren't granted press passes to cover the Jets. Maybe because they're not press and internet bloggers.

They also have terrible taeks on hockey.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by esquire

The article obviously isn't about the game of hockey itself, but it's fair to discuss the bigger picture.

Let's face it, TNSE uses hockey as a means to extract a lot of tax money from the public. Of course, you can make a reasonable argument that it's worth it in the long run and we as citizens get back something for the money we spend, both tangible (tax revenue, increased economic activity) and intangible (great PR and a civic status symbol). But it's by no means a slam dunk either way... it's certainly a debatable point.

It's certainly debatable, but maybe debating that side of what TNSE does should be left to journalists who are familiar with finance, politics and public policy. Arctic Ice hockey should stick to talking about what happens on the ice.

Like, I'm supposed to hate TNSE because they're a business and they're interested in making money? Is Arctic Ice Hockey about to start pushing for a proletarian revolution? Next week will they write about hockey or about seizing the means of production?

[headhorse]

some of ya'll are like a cult

you've bought so far into TN's propaghanda about saving the team and this being such an unprofitable market, expect they are making millions while still asking for citizen's money. that's not making money, that's exploitation.

why couldn't the citizen's collectively own our sports team and elect a board and administration team? why do we need to pay some billionaire in Toronto's millions every year to do that?

if the pubic is already paying for (subsidizing) the development's risk and "public" sector enhancements, why is the public not receiving the benefits?

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by headhorse

some of ya'll are like a cult

you've bought so far into TN's propaghanda about saving the team and this being such an unprofitable market, expect they are making millions while still asking for citizen's money. that's not making money, that's exploitation and blackmail.

why couldn't the citizen's collectively own our sports team and just elect a board and administration team? why do we need to pay some billionaire in Toronto's millions every year to do that?

do you not think that all of the millions in subsidies for TN's new development could have built way more affordable units and commercial spaces by a not-for-profit, publicly owned development service (like what CV should be)?

CV was never meant to be a developer and not should they be. This publicly owned team business also leads to all sorts of debacles (see blue bombers).

As far as the millions in subsidies for TNS. Yeah maybe they could have built hundreds of cheap quality affordable units. However, part of the point of the project is to bring in residents who are going to spend lots of money downtown. And people of means don't usually feel like living in cheaply built buildings and units. Bringing people closer to where they work is a good thing, and having that many new higher income residents will be a huge shot in the arm for downtown.

And FYI yes TN has taken a huge risk coming into a small market with an NHL team. It's not our God given right to have a pro hockey team to cheer for. Investing in the team had had other benefits than just paying off chipman and Thompson. It has arguably spurred a wave of development that has brought tons of investment downtown.

If everything were collectively owned the world would be a bleak pace

[bomberjet]

TNSE is a business. Just like that article said. So what's the problem? I don't owe them anything and they don't owe me anything. I use what their business provides. I pay for it. So?

[headhorse]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

CV was never meant to be a developer and not should they be. This publicly owned team business also leads to all sorts of debacles (see blue bombers).

As far as the millions in subsidies for TNS. Yeah maybe they could have built hundreds of cheap quality affordable units. However, part of the point of the project is to bring in residents who are going to spend lots of money downtown. And people of means don't usually feel like living in cheaply built buildings and units. Bringing people closer to where they work is a good thing, and having that many new higher income residents will be a huge shot in the arm for downtown.

And FYI yes TN has taken a huge risk coming into a small market with an NHL team. It's not our God given right to have a pro hockey team to cheer for. Investing in the team had had other benefits than just paying off chipman and Thompson. It has arguably spurred a wave of development that has brought tons of investment downtown.

If everything were collectively owned the world would be a bleak pace

CV should be accountable to the public and should function to identify housing needs in the core and respond to them. the private sector has proven that it can't provide affordable housing, someone needs to step in.

what is true north's risk? what exactly do they stand to lose? they've already made their investment plus more, and are now set up to reap real estate benefits for years. could a similar injection of public dollars in housing and infrastructure downtown not had similar effects?

some things make sense to be collectively owned, yes. i mean, that's probably similar to your conception to what a nation or state is? you feel a stake of ownership in canada/manitoba and it's future.

but honestly, a hockey team would be very low priority on a list of things to collectivize. it's just another example of "socialism" for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

[ediger]

Originally Posted by headhorse

some of ya'll are like a cult

you've bought so far into TN's propaghanda about saving the team and this being such an unprofitable market, expect they are making millions while still asking for citizen's money. that's not making money, that's exploitation.

why couldn't the citizen's collectively own our sports team and elect a board and administration team? why do we need to pay some billionaire in Toronto's millions every year to do that?

if the pubic is already paying for (subsidizing) the development's risk and "public" sector enhancements, why is the public not receiving the benefits?

The NHL doesn't allow publicly owned teams.

[esquire]

headhorse raises some good points. Of course, all of that stuff would pretty well cease being a public issue if TNSE didn't receive public largesse. But they do, so it's fair game to discuss and debate it, even in a hockey blog like Arctic Ice.

[bomberjet]

It's a fair topic for sure. I just don't see the need to vilanize a private company who is playing by the rules set out by the government. If the government is being lax or doesn't enforce the laws, then maybe we should be talking about the government and not the company?

If you were developing a property and the government if offering millions in subsidies, would you not go after those? Good on ARTIS for building 300 Main with private money (save for the foundation which we all know about...). I'm not sure what type of subsidies were/are available for rentals vs condos. Or for 'public space'.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

It's a fair topic for sure. I just don't see the need to vilanize a private company who is playing by the rules set out by the government. If the government is being lax or doesn't enforce the laws, then maybe we should be talking about the government and not the company?

If you were developing a property and the government if offering millions in subsidies, would you not go after those? Good on ARTIS for building 300 Main with private money (save for the foundation which we all know about...). I'm not sure what type of subsidies were/are available for rentals vs condos. Or for 'public space'.

No one has suggested that TN is doing anything unlawful... that's not the issue at all. The issue is about choices made by the government, and whether it's appropriate to be providing so much public money toward something where the tangible benefits are largely private.

I guess it boils down to whether the economic activity, tax revenue and general goodwill generated by TN's business activities justify the public subsidies. Personally, I'm not 100% certain that it is. I mean, I sure like the Jets, the Moose, MTS Centre and True North Square. So on an emotional level it's easy to overlook the millions that TN receives from public coffers. But is this the best way for the City and Province to spend their money? I'm not so sure that it is.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by windypeg

It's certainly debatable, but maybe debating that side of what TNSE does should be left to journalists who are familiar with finance, politics and public policy. Arctic Ice hockey should stick to talking about what happens on the ice.

Like, I'm supposed to hate TNSE because they're a business and they're interested in making money? Is Arctic Ice Hockey about to start pushing for a proletarian revolution? Next week will they write about hockey or about seizing the means of production?

I'm quite pissed at how much TNS is subsidized, but that issue lies with the entities that fund them, more than TNS for asking. The fact that TNS perhaps needed this to make a profit and should have foreseen it is a seperate matter as the arena they play in (unintended) is NOT easy).

But that was one dumb 🞵🞵🞵🞵 article. Classic layperson idiotic 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 trying to turn some rich guy's situation into contempt for the public and/or poor. Everyone wants to make money, not just the rich, and every business will do its damndest to do so.

I think they absolutely should provide the affordable housing to qualify for funds.

Originally Posted by headhorse

some of ya'll are like a cult

you've bought so far into TN's propaghanda about saving the team and this being such an unprofitable market, expect they are making millions while still asking for citizen's money. that's not making money, that's exploitation.

why couldn't the citizen's collectively own our sports team and elect a board and administration team? why do we need to pay some billionaire in Toronto's millions every year to do that?

if the pubic is already paying for (subsidizing) the development's risk and "public" sector enhancements, why is the public not receiving the benefits?

Well, that IS why they left in the first place, and it also was about convincing Bettman, who didn't want the Jets to come back to Wpg, that this was a homerun.

Furthermore, while they all operate under the TN name, they're seperate entities run by and potentially owned by different individuals or structures. You don't willy-nilly borrow from one pile to put it in the other. TNSE's hockey/entertainment success cannot cover a loss (or lower-than-anticipated success) at TNS just because "they're rich dammit!". This project is spec'd HIGH, so I'm not surprised that they ask for assistance. This project has to succeed on its own, period.

Should the city/province/whoever helped out? A little. This much? Hell no. My problem lies with them. They picked their favourite child and its 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵. I don't blame TNSE for trying to spin this to avoid backlash. Backlash should be in the city ad province.

As far as public benefits? They're quite huge. The Jets return alone has been a major economic and social boost downtown.

Originally Posted by headhorse

CV should be accountable to the public and should function to identify housing needs in the core and respond to them. the private sector has proven that it can't provide affordable housing, someone needs to step in.

what is true north's risk? what exactly do they stand to lose? they've already made their investment plus more, and are now set up to reap real estate benefits for years. could a similar injection of public dollars in housing and infrastructure downtown not had similar effects?

some things make sense to be collectively owned, yes. i mean, that's probably similar to your conception to what a nation or state is? you feel a stake of ownership in canada/manitoba and it's future.

but honestly, a hockey team would be very low priority on a list of things to collectivize. it's just another example of "socialism" for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

Do you mean the private sector can't supply affordable housing? Or that they cannot provide 10% of units for funding. Because the private sector, TNSE included, can do the latter. That they haven't been forced to is bad.

The former? NOBODY can provide it. The numbers don't check out. It's not a matter of ability, but the fact that the civic entities are willing to make horrible business decisions to provide affordable housing.

That's not a shot. Just saying that based on the math, it's a horrible business decision. Perhaps a good social decision.

However, incorporating funding and 10% affordable units into private developments is a good thing because it does address a housing need while allowing projects to succeed. Pure social housing by itself isn't a downtown savour because it doesn't generate any additional revenue/growth in the marketplace.

As far as TN's risk? It's 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 massive. A $400M project could very well have $40M in extras or unforeseens, especially with new tariffs and many more outside factors. This project could have easily buried their real estate arm in a split second. Perhaps that's why the panic for funds exists.

[Wpg_Guy]

Two different perspectives of @truenorthsquare in #Winnipeg!
Had an amazing time designing this with @architecture49. Photos by the amazing Tom Arban.
https://twitter.com/perkinswill_VAN/status/1044631244305100800


TNS Instagram

[ediger]

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

I can't think of anything in this city that looked that close to the renders when completed. The brick work in the plaza is nearly identical. Same with the landscaping on the terrace. I'm also surprised at the amount of light getting through to the plaza.

[BigG]

Opens tomorrow!