Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[WarrenC12]

Agreed. UBC is it's own little city out there. What is the additional cost to UBC expected to be? Assume nothing happens in conjunction with the Arbutus Line, it's built a few years later.

Would there be a measurable impact if the line was elevated from say Blanca?

[misher]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The problem isn't that they don't see how many people will ride the Broadway extension - they're well aware of that. The problem can boiled down to one simple thing - show me the money. We don't have the money to build the whole thing in a one go. Hell we're having trouble raising our share of just the Phase One to Arbutus money.

Then there's the issue of who has to do without. The entire region needs upgraded transit in some form. Money is being pulled from everywhere else to fund this. Everywhere outside of CoV primarily has 30 min (or less) bus service - that is not going to get increased. One reason Surrey is pushing LRT is because it's cheaper to build and they don't think they're going to get money to build Skytrain.

Personally I would love to see a lot more B-Line routes across the region already but that's been pushed back too, due to the simple reason of we don't have the money. So yeah, it would be great to have the Broadway extension built all at once - but unless you can get someone like Elon Musk to invest in it, it's just not going to happen.

I'd love to see it go all the way too. But there's the traffic disruptions, lack of time, and labour. We can get the part to Arbutus done by 2025 but all the way to UBC will take a hell load longer. It may make sense to get to Arbutus then work from UBC to Arbutus from 2025-2030 so that the line to Arbutus can operate for 5 years.

Remember we have the time period from now until 2025 to make a decision and dredge up the funding.

Honestly if we wanted to fund it to UBC we can do so quite easily. Just get UBC to fund a portion of it and sell increased density along Broadway like candy. Then we get huge amounts of urban buildup around the skytrain stations and funding to build a skytrain for free. Broadway can easily become another downtown spread out in a horizontal line with a major road straight down it and easy transit. Broadway is located much more conveniently than downtown city-centre wise as its actually closer to the middle of Vancouver and it makes sense to develop it to the max. We should never have had to ask the province or federal government for funding on something that can easily pay for itself.

Its a win-win scenario where we get increased density around skytrains and we get funding for skytrains. Unfortunately we're currently anti development anti real estate anti speculation anti money anti foreign money and stuck with no development along Broadway for 2 years. Permit Strata Condos/High End Commercial all the way down Broadway and our government would be so flush with cash that we can build modular housing for every homeless person. However, I know were going to build rentals/social housing and screw up the opportunity as we believe the nicest areas should house our poorest residents.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

Hi everyone, I've been visiting UBC campus quite a bit these past few days and it got me thinking how critical it is to extend the line to UBC as soon as the Central Broadway section is done and how massive a shift in ridership it will cause once it is complete..../edit/

When Skytrain is fully extended to UBC, many of those people who currently take those routes will now take the Millennium Line instead as it will be faster and more reliable.

Expect Canada Line numbers to swell significantly one the extension is fully built.

That "swelling" of Canada Line traffic you mention is going to bring the Canada Line to saturation point, I would judge. As such, that might be why, although currently more of a
"transit fanstasy," the Arbutus line will asssume a much greater emphasis than it now has. It is often referred to as a "tram" at present, but I think that there's a chance that
it will need to be transformed into a full-fledged rrt line, and the Burrard bridge-tunnel concept taken seriously,
with major reconstructuion of the Burrard Bridge concrete support pillars to handle rail, and a tunnel under Burrard going right downtown.
Right now, just a notion; in the future: a vital necessity ..... IMO.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by misher

I'd love to see it go all the way too. But there's the traffic disruptions, lack of time, and labour. We can get the part to Arbutus done by 2025 but all the way to UBC will take a hell load longer. It may make sense to get to Arbutus then work from UBC to Arbutus from 2025-2030 so that the line to Arbutus can operate for 5 years.

Remember we have the time period from now until 2025 to make a decision and dredge up the funding.

Honestly if we wanted to fund it to UBC we can do so quite easily. Just get UBC to fund a portion of it and sell increased density along Broadway like candy. Then we get huge amounts of urban buildup around the skytrain stations and funding to build a skytrain for free. Broadway can easily become another downtown spread out in a horizontal line with a major road straight down it and easy transit. Broadway is located much more conveniently than downtown city-centre wise as its actually closer to the middle of Vancouver and it makes sense to develop it to the max. We should never have had to ask the province or federal government for funding on something that can easily pay for itself.

Its a win-win scenario where we get increased density around skytrains and we get funding for skytrains. Unfortunately we're currently anti development anti real estate anti speculation anti money anti foreign money and stuck with no development along Broadway for 2 years. Permit Strata Condos/High End Commercial all the way down Broadway and our government would be so flush with cash that we can build modular housing for every homeless person. However, I know were going to build rentals/social housing and screw up the opportunity as we believe the nicest areas should house our poorest residents.

1) Broadway Corridor still allows Development Permit applications and existing Rezoning are still allowed to proceed.
2) Most of Broadway is zoned for office.
3) Translink is not run by the CofV, but is partially funded from it, true.
4) Broadway Corridor is our most accessible neighbourhood and density is encouraged, but not at the mass displacement of existing residents, most of whom rent and take transit (due to necessity).
5) Current rezoning guidelines promote social housing and rentals, which is geared towards households earning anywhere under $120k+. Those are not "poor people" living in our nicest neighbourhoods, but regular Vancouverites living in a central Vancouver corridor that stretches from Yukon to Arbutus.
6) The "nicest" most central communities should not be held for those individuals that earn above $80k. That's poor planning from a land-use perspective and transportation perspective.

[misher]

My comment was more to do with how we could pay for the whole line to UBC. But I will answer as the below:

GenWhy?;8318653]1) Broadway Corridor still allows Development Permit applications and existing Rezoning are still allowed to proceed.

-So for 2 years development is frozen and there is no plan for increasing density. Note that 2 years is a heck of a long time for a plan they could probably finish in 1-2 months+public consultation. They've also missed their first milestone/deadline (mid 2018) and are now into late 2018 so either they plan to rush it at the end or the 2 year plan will end up being 3+ years https://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/broadway-plan.aspx A reminder that Broadway will have tons of shutdowns for construction on the skytrain, so we now get to combine this with shutdowns on Broadway/side roads for building construction instead of doing the construction early.

2) Most of Broadway is zoned for office.

-For low rise commercial/residential with many offices around the hospital area. Commercial on the ground floor or first 2 floors works well with 10 stories of residential on top.

4) Broadway Corridor is our most accessible neighbourhood and density is encouraged, but not at the mass displacement of existing residents, most of whom rent and take transit (due to necessity).

-Much of Broadway is commercial thus little to no displacement of existing residents. Residents in rentals can be required to be replaced 1 for 1 (or even 2!). Renters would have to be offered something to leave their rentals, likely half a year of rent or more. I'm sure the city can require something that makes renters happy to leave.

5) Current rezoning guidelines promote social housing and rentals, which is geared towards households earning anywhere under $120k+. Those are not "poor people" living in our nicest neighbourhoods, but regular Vancouverites living in a central Vancouver corridor that stretches from Yukon to Arbutus.

Yes but social housing and rentals will not pay the bills. Getting the Broadway corridor to UBC for free (or even a profit) was the basis of my argument. If our government wants to operate at a loss and beg the provincial/federal government for funding then yes, rentals/social is fine. However, rentals/socials projects are slow so density wise we are not achieving our goals of creating urban centres around stations.


6) The "nicest" most central communities should not be held for those individuals that earn above $80k. That's poor planning from a land-use perspective and transportation perspective.

Why not? Were a major city. We're already a lot less divided then most (ie many cities divide the rich and poor). Its quite common in cities to have rich and poor neighborhoods. Why can't the Broadway Corridor be for the rich just like Yaletown or West Van is? Why fight it? Lets tax them more to pay for our initiatives and laugh at their stupidity. Seriously who pays over 2 million for a
2 bed condo with no view, don't question it, just take the money and laugh.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by misher

My comment was more to do with how we could pay for the whole line to UBC. But I will answer as the below:

GenWhy?;8318653]1) Broadway Corridor still allows Development Permit applications and existing Rezoning are still allowed to proceed.

-So for 2 years development is frozen and there is no plan for increasing density. Note that 2 years is a heck of a long time for a plan they could probably finish in 1-2 months+public consultation. They've also missed their first milestone/deadline (mid 2018) and are now into late 2018 so either they plan to rush it at the end or the 2 year plan will end up being 3+ years https://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/broadway-plan.aspx A reminder that Broadway will have tons of shutdowns for construction on the skytrain, so we now get to combine this with shutdowns on Broadway/side roads for building construction instead of doing the construction early.

2) Most of Broadway is zoned for office.

-For low rise commercial/residential with many offices around the hospital area. Commercial on the ground floor or first 2 floors works well with 10 stories of residential on top.

4) Broadway Corridor is our most accessible neighbourhood and density is encouraged, but not at the mass displacement of existing residents, most of whom rent and take transit (due to necessity).

-Much of Broadway is commercial thus little to no displacement of existing residents. Residents in rentals can be required to be replaced 1 for 1 (or even 2!). Renters would have to be offered something to leave their rentals, likely half a year of rent or more. I'm sure the city can require something that makes renters happy to leave.

5) Current rezoning guidelines promote social housing and rentals, which is geared towards households earning anywhere under $120k+. Those are not "poor people" living in our nicest neighbourhoods, but regular Vancouverites living in a central Vancouver corridor that stretches from Yukon to Arbutus.

Yes but social housing and rentals will not pay the bills. Getting the Broadway corridor to UBC for free (or even a profit) was the basis of my argument. If our government wants to operate at a loss and beg the provincial/federal government for funding then yes, rentals/social is fine. However, rentals/socials projects are slow so density wise we are not achieving our goals of creating urban centres around stations.


6) The "nicest" most central communities should not be held for those individuals that earn above $80k. That's poor planning from a land-use perspective and transportation perspective.

Why not? Were a major city. We're already a lot less divided then most (ie many cities divide the rich and poor). Its quite common in cities to have rich and poor neighborhoods. Why can't the Broadway Corridor be for the rich just like Yaletown or West Van is? Why fight it? Lets tax them more to pay for our initiatives and laugh at their stupidity. Seriously who pays over 2 million for a
2 bed condo with no view, don't question it, just take the money and laugh.

1) In short: Development is not "frozen". Many lots along Broadway around future Skytrain are below currently zoned density and height, with some currently going through and have recently applied for permits. Consultation in a democracy to rezone blocks of land in three different communities in 1-2 months is not feasible nor achievable for various reasons stemming from data collection, land and transportation use perspectives, prior to an election, and from a community perspective..

2) Broadway is mostly zoned for office. The Plan's catchment area is mostly zoned RT or RM. What you're calling for is a change to the zoning in key areas along the Corridor, on Broadway. Which is what's largely happening through the City's consultation and review process. Their plans can be viewed online. Encouraging development of all areas within the plan does what the City is trying to avoid.. speculation, increased rents, and displacement.

3) Broadway extension is largely funded by other forms of government because that's how the majority of tax is collected with cities in Canada colleting the smallest fraction of citizen taxes to pay for items such as this. The extension is also a Metro project and prioritized as a Metro need.

4) A large portion of the plan includes areas north and south of Broadway, which includes large amounts of rental buildings. Under the City's Rate of Change policy, it is true that rentals in non-C zoned areas must be replaced 1-for1; however, offered at a barely-below market rate, tenants will be displaced for the years of construction, will pay substantial higher rents... all amid a housing crisis and low vacancy rate. The Corridor plan and the coming Skytrain all aim to curb that issue and retain tenants, rental housing, and job access.

5) Renters pay taxes (income and property) = The Bills. You repeatedly call for lower CAC or DCL rates and fees and this pays a degree of various City infrastructure initiatives. Again, Vancouver proper cannot and will not pay for the whole extension to Arbutus or UBC. It is not a Vancouver-only transit line. Funding for most projects like this are 1/3 for each level of government due to distribution of tax dollars and our system of government. Rental buildings and social housing is an expedited process compared to most developments; though, many require rezonings. Under the Interim Plan, this is allowed anyway. Under the new plan, rezoning shouldn't be necessary, making the process shorter.

6) The most centrally and best transit accessible and walkable neighbourhoods are the most economical for those that cannot afford to drive. Displacing workers of central employment gets you the issues that North Vancouver and the District of North Vancouver has now. Further displacing households that earn less than $120k is not good city planning or good economics. Also, you've routinely stated to decrease CACs and DCLs but claim to support raising them here to support building infrastructure, which you've also claimed to lament the City doing that exactly thing in this Corridor in the Interim Plan.

I'm just a little confused.

[GenWhy?]

For reference, here is the Corridor Plan that coincides with this thread's Skytrain expansion: https://vancouver.ca/files/cov/broadway-planning-program.pdf

[Geof]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

The most centrally and best transit accessible and walkable neighbourhoods are the most economical for those that cannot afford to drive.

This is especially true for the poor, who need access to services and can least afford the cost of transit or long commutes. This is why the highest per square meter rents are for slums: the total cost is nevertheless lower, so demand is greater.

We have been seeing the same phenomenon with the middle class and condos. The per square meter cost of condos has rocketed up over the past few years, while single family home prices have stagnated. Buying a chunk of land with a house is better value for money and a better long-term investment, but that's irrelevant if the price is out of reach. Incerases happen at the price point that has the greatest demand. My impression is that we've seen this again and again in recent years as house prices push outward from the centre, increasing dramatically at first, then plateauing as they become out-of-reach of the middle class.

Which isn't to say I'm against higher density on the west side: far from it. But the idea of reserving the city core for the rich simply won't work. This is part of why I am even more keen on seeing dense, walkable developments outside the City of Vancouver, so that they are in reach of more people.

[retro_orange]

I'd propose turning Kitsilano into the density of the West end, fill it full of mid rise apartments and condos to make best use of the expensive land. That would definitely increase the taxes generated in the area and open it up to mid-income earners who need the transit service.

Maybe I should run for office. I am great at tuning out —-hats.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by dleung

Vancouver without the Broadway extension to UBC is like Toronto without most of the Bloor line, and we're still debating whether it's worth it
Last edited by deasine; Sep 11, 2018 at 10:37 PM. Reason: Imaged removed in violation of forum rules without sufficient citation

Just realized image was removed, here it is with citation


source: me and ms paint lol

[Feathered Friend]

Ken Sim goes on a spirited rant about how extending the Millennium Line to UBC doesn’t make economic sense because there isn’t the ridership, says money can be put in other places to reduce congestion.

That’s a tangible difference from Stewart’s campaign. Will NPA push it?

https://twitter.com/j_mcelroy/status/1043996538886750208

I can't begin to say how disappointed I am to hear this candidate take this stance.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

https://twitter.com/j_mcelroy/status/1043996538886750208

I can't begin to say how disappointed I am to hear this candidate take this stance.

While I appreciate someone who is willing to speak out against popular opinion this is also political suicide.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by misher

While I appreciate someone who is willing to speak out against popular opinion this is also political suicide.

You pay attention to who Sim is paying attention to and he's very much trying to stake himself out as the preservationist candidate. And anything like proper rapid transit infrastructure to the West Side makes west side exclusionary policies all that much less tenable

[WarrenC12]

Funny Sim would take that stance. I guess he is the same old NPA after all.

The more pragmatic approach would be to say you support more public transit, but it's a regional decision, and funded mostly by higher levels of government...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The more pragmatic approach would be to say you support more public transit, but it's a regional decision, and funded mostly by higher levels of government...

And that would also attract voters abandoning Bremner. When will the NPA learn that there aren't enough right-wing NIMBYs to carry an election?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And that would also attract voters abandoning Bremner. When will the NPA learn that there aren't enough right-wing NIMBYs to carry an election?

Well, they've left the bike lane hysterics to the loony Wai Young, and if Bremner suffers from this billboard scandal enough, they will be in good shape. The Left vote is quite fractured right now.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I guess he is the same old NPA after all.

i wouldn't call that the same old NPA at all. the NPA are the ones who created the Downtown Historic Railway, the Downtown Street car plans, put a bike lane on the Burrard Bridge, designated the Arbutus Corridor as a future Greenway, created the first bikeway/greenway running E/W. the NPA also are the ones who created Yaletown, and Olympic Village.

the NPA was pro bike/pro transit but at the same time, pro transportation. Vision came in and only cared about the bike part and got rid of the idea of planning for transportation.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

the NPA was pro bike/pro transit but at the same time, pro transportation. Vision came in and only cared about the bike part and got rid of the idea of planning for transportation.

Vision also pushed for tunneled SkyTrain when the left-wing NIMBYs wanted light rail and the right-wing NIMBYs wanted nothing (or vice versa). They weren't completely awful.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Well, they've left the bike lane hysterics to the loony Wai Young, and if Bremner suffers from this billboard scandal enough, they will be in good shape. The Left vote is quite fractured right now.

Not necessarily. Practically every poll shows Stewart clearly in the lead, Sim trailing and Sylvester/Bremner/Young/Chen fighting over the table scraps.

[Metro-One]

Vision supporting the Millennium line to UBC was one area that I was very happy with them.

Now with UBC warming up to giving their share of funding I really don’t want to see this project butchered / further delayed...

Having already lost the GMT replacement and the on going Surrey LRT nonsense, I can’t have this project also get butchered.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Vision supporting the Millennium line to UBC was one area that I was very happy with them.

Now with UBC warming up to giving their share of funding I really don’t want to see this project butchered / further delayed...

Having already lost the GMT replacement and the on going Surrey LRT nonsense, I can’t have this project also get butchered.

A tunneled train to Arbutus guarantees this will by Skytrain, and likely tunneled the rest of the way. It will be interesting to see what UBC will realistically pay for. This could easily be a $1.5B project. UBC in for $300M/20%?