O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

While all of this is fine, it's not going to change the budget situation at OC Transpo significantly, as a switch to zone fares would almost as a given be revenue neutral at least at first. Vancouver, which has zone fares, high density, and no greenbelt isn't much better off than us.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

The TTC has an excellent ratio, but they have an advantage of far more people in less space. We'll have to get more creative than just tweaking fares if we want to significantly get more bang for buck.

Not saying it would change the recovery ratio. Just saying that might be a scheme that works well for Ottawa if there's a desire to price by distance.

I am not sure fare by distance would work well in Ottawa. All those suburbanites may choose to drive. You have to increase parking charges or institute congestion charges, etc. to balance out the fare-by-distance increase.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Practically speaking a combination would be best. Make trains tap on/tap off and base them on distance. Make buses time-based. And combine when both modes are used.

London sort of does something like this.

As I previously mentioned time-based fares should not be charged on any transit since travel time is a function of the following;
1. the route that the bus takes is usually not the most direct route.
2. delays caused by construction, weather, traffic or low frequency is not controllable by the rider.
3. to be consistent if you are going to charge by time then you should charge on all transit services.

[McC]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Vancouver, which has zone fares, high density, and no greenbelt .

Sure it does, it’s just called the Agricultural Reserve Lands, and transit runs great distances across them to get to places like White Rock, Tsawwassen, and Langley.
https://www.alc.gov.bc.ca/assets/alc/ass...-maps/maps-and-gis/south_coast_panel.pdf

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Fares should also be discounted for travelling in non-peak time periods.

Agreed. During periods of peak usage, there is a coloration between the cost of providing service and the number of riders. When usage is low, the cost of providing service is relatively constant regardless of the number of users. Finding ways to encourage more people to use transit when the buses/trains aren't full will generate more revenue (at least for those without passes) with little to no additional cost.

All that to say the zone fare shouldn't apply outside of peak periods.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by McC

Sure it does, it’s just called the Agricultural Reserve Lands, and transit runs great distances across them to get to places like White Rock, Tsawwassen, and Langley.
https://www.alc.gov.bc.ca/assets/alc/ass...-maps/maps-and-gis/south_coast_panel.pdf

The share of the GVRD's population that lives beyond the reserve lands is, maybe, 10% of the metro population.

In Ottawa, the outside-the-Brownbelt sprawlburbs had nearly 50% of the city's population in the last census.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Did a flyover of the Trillium Line!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQMOlo8mamQ

Cool video. Thanks for posting. Would be interesting to see a Future Line 2 video with the line and station additions some time in the future.

Took a look at some of your other videos too. Nice to see some other transit enthusiasts out there. Keep up the interesting work!

[OCCheetos]

Stadler just recently announced the "FLIRT Akku", a battery-powered version of the FLIRT.
Top speed of 140km/h, range of 80km, can be charged at terminal stations and via overhead electrification.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/meta/news-media/article/stadler-unleashes-flirt/

It sounds like it'd be perfect for use on the Trillium Line.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Stadler just recently announced the "FLIRT Akku", a battery-powered version of the FLIRT.
Top speed of 140km/h, range of 80km, can be charged at terminal stations and via overhead electrification.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/meta/news-media/article/stadler-unleashes-flirt/

It sounds like it'd be perfect for use on the Trillium Line.

Good Day.

Absolutely - top notch ! esp. if we simply install rechargers at each end.

Now....... will they/we ??
Given that the acquisition of vehicles was a separate contract, was it already signed and done, or can it be varied, or will Jimmy want it varied, or, or, or...... ?

Pessimistic me says no chance in H !

As always, We Shall See !

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Stadler just recently announced the "FLIRT Akku", a battery-powered version of the FLIRT.
Top speed of 140km/h, range of 80km, can be charged at terminal stations and via overhead electrification.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/meta/news-media/article/stadler-unleashes-flirt/

It sounds like it'd be perfect for use on the Trillium Line.

Here is a video on Facebook of the of the "FLIRT Akku" passing by (there doesn't seem to be any sound though):

https://www.facebook.com/stadlerglobal/videos/2136511819933754/

The batteries must be on top of the train as there doesn't seem to be an extra unit in the middle like there is on the DMU.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Stadler just recently announced the "FLIRT Akku", a battery-powered version of the FLIRT.
Top speed of 140km/h, range of 80km, can be charged at terminal stations and via overhead electrification.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/meta/news-media/article/stadler-unleashes-flirt/

It sounds like it'd be perfect for use on the Trillium Line.

Damn that would be the perfect solution. Just electrify the new extension South of South Keys and it should be enough to get a full charge.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Damn that would be the perfect solution. Just electrify the new extension South of South Keys and it should be enough to get a full charge.

They don’t even need to do that much. Just electrify the stations that have longer dwell times (likely Bayview, Carleton, South Keys, and Limebank).

[Truenorth00]

Are they even building actual stations for Stage 2 or just extending the platforms a bit and putting up a few more bus shelters?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Stadler just recently announced the "FLIRT Akku", a battery-powered version of the FLIRT.
Top speed of 140km/h, range of 80km, can be charged at terminal stations and via overhead electrification.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/meta/news-media/article/stadler-unleashes-flirt/

It sounds like it'd be perfect for use on the Trillium Line.

That’s even more perfect than the hydrogen train. You don’t even need to electrify the whole corridor. Just the terminii. With the distance involved, they’ll have charged enough in the time it takes for the operator to go from one end to the next and settle in.

I wonder what the cost would be to switch to this and to get it certified to operate on the Trillium Line.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Absolutely - top notch ! esp. if we simply install rechargers at each end.

Now....... will they/we ??
Given that the acquisition of vehicles was a separate contract, was it already signed and done, or can it be varied, or will Jimmy want it varied, or, or, or...... ?

Pessimistic me says no chance in H !

As always, We Shall See !

Jim Watson campaigned on piloting electric buses in this next term... so who knows? I can't see them switching over to an entire fleet of battery-powered trains, but I would love to see them pilot one or two to see how well it would work.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Are they even building actual stations for Stage 2 or just extending the platforms a bit and putting up a few more bus shelters?

Isn't the Trillium Line contract now a DFBOM (with or without some of those letters) contract? We might get some better stations and platforms. At the very least I'd expect them to rebuild the existing platforms if for no other reason than to add heating tubes like in the platform at Bayview.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That’s even more perfect than the hydrogen train. You don’t even need to electrify the whole corridor. Just the terminii. With the distance involved, they’ll have charged enough in the time it takes for the operator to go from one end to the next and settle in.

I wonder what the cost would be to switch to this and to get it certified to operate on the Trillium Line.

The trains will have 12-minute dwell times at each end so that ought to be plenty of time!

Apparently the demo vehicle they displayed was production ready and set to be used on "selected routes" beginning next year in Germany (I believe? That's the country the referenced the most and also where the demo took place). If it's certified for use in Germany, it's essentially certified for the Trillium Line since those are pretty much the guidelines they used for selecting the LINTs.

On a related note, and a bit of a callback to the "good old days", not long ago Bombardier announced a battery-powered version of the Talent 3. It has a range of only 40km, but a new version set for next year will have a range of 100km. Same overhead charging.

I do wonder how well these trains would handle the cold weather though.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Isn't the Trillium Line contract now a DFBOM (with or without some of those letters) contract? We might get some better stations and platforms. At the very least I'd expect them to rebuild the existing platforms if for no other reason than to add heating tubes like in the platform at Bayview.

I don’t think the contract format can tell you much on what is going to be delivered. We need to know what the city will contract for. What are they asking to be delivered?

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The trains will have 12-minute dwell times at each end so that ought to be plenty of time!

Yep. And only 16 km in each direction. This is why I don’t even think they need chargers anywhere but at each terminus.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Apparently the demo vehicle they displayed was production ready and set to be used on "selected routes" beginning next year in Germany (I believe? That's the country the referenced the most and also where the demo took place). If it's certified for use in Germany, it's essentially certified for the Trillium Line since those are pretty much the guidelines they used for selecting the LINTs.

The problem is certification for North America....

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

On a related note, and a bit of a callback to the "good old days", not long ago Bombardier announced a battery-powered version of the Talent 3. It has a range of only 40km, but a new version set for next year will have a range of 100km. Same overhead charging.

Every regional train maker is jumping into the battery train game. Emissions requirements in Europe, combined with the costs of electrification is driving this. There’s no business case to electrify less used corridors. And they have a lot of corridors in Europe that are may be 50-100km long with hourly trains. In our case, the Trillium Line probably has a better case for using battery electrical trains than electrification or bi-mode. I wish they’d at least study it before taking delivering of the FLIRT3s.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I do wonder how well these trains would handle the cold weather though.

Their battery packs come with thermal management systems quite often. They’d be fine in our weather. And the distance involved here isn’t large enough to create a risk if energy consumption is higher than anticipated.

[Truenorth00]

By the way, is the 12 min frequency confirmed?

I am seeing 8 mins on their EPR:

The additional capacity has allowed a 10-12 minute service frequency between Monday and Friday with a 12-15 minute service frequency on weekends. Frequencies will gradually be stepped up to 8-10 minutes with an anticipated pphpd capacity of 1,500-1,750 (6-8 trains per hour in each direction) as ridership increases. Service typically operates between 6:00 a.m. and midnight on weekdays and between 6:30 a.m. and midnight on weekends.

Source:
http://cdn.wsp-pb.com/u5wdrq/trillium-line-environmental-project-report.pdf

@OCCheetos, where did you see 12 mins between trains?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

By the way, is the 12 min frequency confirmed?

I am seeing 8 mins on their EPR:



Source:
http://cdn.wsp-pb.com/u5wdrq/trillium-line-environmental-project-report.pdf

@OCCheetos, where did you see 12 mins between trains?

In the email they sent me in response, and in the addendum.

https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/defaul...cial_EA_Addendum_Appendices.pdf#page=117

(page 117).

Edit: on top of that, the 12 minute frequencies are constrained by track geometry. There's no way to add any more trains at peak periods without adding more track.

[lrt's friend]

The only way to increase frequency is to increase the speed of trains. It cannot be accomplished by adding trains unless the line is fully double tracked, which we know is not happening in Phase 2. I will be surprised if they can reliably increase the frequency.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The only way to increase frequency is to increase the speed of trains. It cannot be accomplished by adding trains unless the line is fully double tracked, which we know is not happening in Phase 2. I will be surprised if they can reliably increase the frequency.

Not true. It may seem counter intuitive, but increasing train speed does not significantly increase frequency. It will only decrease travel time. Having shorter blocks (with passing tracks between the blocks) is how you increase frequency. The disadvantage of shorter blocks is increased travel times and decreased reliability, so you get to the point where double tracking it the only solution. We are close to that point (if not already there) with the Trillium Line.