Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Are they saving anything from the LRT in the next few years, at all? They are still running a pile of express buses from the suburbs in the west. And they will still have plenty of detours. All while having the added cost of maintaining an LRT system that will be low on efficiency till properly built out in Stage 2.



That all sounds nice until hard money is put up for a vote at council.

They are still cutting 300+ drivers with Phase 1. Are there no savings from this? I find this bizarre despite the detours and expresses that you refer to. We are still cutting hundreds of employees.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't know of any streetcar line in the downtown core that isn't frequent in Toronto. But with the exception of St.Clair they are also slow as molasses because they don't have exclusive ROWs.



My point is that there's very little evidence that transit drives vibrancy in a particular area. It's largely about who and how many people live near by.



If you're stumbling drunk and can't walk. Sure. You'll be cabbing. In most cities, if you've just got a good buzz on and heading home, you take transit. Do people not take buses home from downtown Ottawa today after a few glasses of wine? This is what I was getting at.

I've used the TTC in Toronto after a night out. As a college student, a young professional and a young married chap. I've taken the bus, the subway, the streetcar and the SRT in those adventures. And in all of them, the driving factor was often simple proximity to transit and cost avoidance of a $70 cab ride. I've transferred while having a good buzz on. It's really not that hard and in most of the world this would be entirely normal.

You know you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You say that transit makes little difference downtown and then you say people can use transit when drunk at a downtown bar.

Ottawa does not offer the level of service that Toronto offers, so it is much more difficult to accomplish what you may have done in the past in Toronto. I looked at the SRT schedule and it runs every 6 minutes until the end of service, yet you complain when I bring up that Ottawa streetcars once had 12 minute frequency until after midnight. Did I suggest that we return to that? NO. I asked for 15 minute frequency on some routes to 9 p.m. I am prepared for baby steps.

Funny, my comments about the past are ridiculous while your past experiences are fully valid. We are actually talking about the exact same thing. Having a transit system that is reliable and frequent enough that we can easily get home without the need of a car.


I don't know why you think that I don't understand about budgets. I do. I don't expect the world. Money should become available even from Phase 1 and that should be reinvested. If there is no money, I think the public should be told why.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

They are still cutting 300+ drivers with Phase 1. Are there no savings from this? I find this bizarre despite the detours and expresses that you refer to.

But those 300 drivers were hired as part of the Stage 1 construction process. Once they are laid off we're pretty much back to pre-Stage 1 number of operators.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

But those 300 drivers were hired as part of the Stage 1 construction process. Once they are laid off we're pretty much back to pre-Stage 1 number of operators.

OK. That is a reasonable explanation. Have the detours had that amount of impact?


Wasn't the detour costs included in the $2.1B budget?

Why are there going to be layoffs if we have to provide similar detour service with Phase 2?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

OK. That is a reasonable explanation. Have the detours had that amount of impact?


Wasn't the detour costs included in the $2.1B budget?

Why are there going to be layoffs if we have to provide similar detour service with Phase 2?

I think Expresses = Connexion and detours = Stage 2 detours in Truenorth00's original post.

Stage 1 and Stage 2 are separate projects. I doubt OC management was allowed to work on the assumption that Stage 2 would actually happen when original hiring was done. I don't really know how or why the contracts are working this way, but I feel like it's one of those things where bureaucracy gets in the way of things making sense.

As of right now OC Transpo is actually hiring.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

OK. That is a reasonable explanation. Have the detours had that amount of impact?


Wasn't the detour costs included in the $2.1B budget?

Why are there going to be layoffs if we have to provide similar detour service with Phase 2?

Stage 2 needs less than Stage 1. The east end won't need any detours versus what they have today, the west is about the sameish as right now during the construction, and the O-Train shutdown is mangeable by the R2 route.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

They are still cutting 300+ drivers with Phase 1. Are there no savings from this? I find this bizarre despite the detours and expresses that you refer to. We are still cutting hundreds of employees.

They have an 800M mortgage to pay, and another billion coming if phase 2 is built.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There are more restaurants on Sparks than there have been in years, so I suspect that you are right.

There are.

But patio activity has dropped off.

Signed,

Person whose day job has been on or very near Sparks for years with a very active 5-à-7 gang who increasingly have to find watering holes which are not on Sparks.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

There are.

But patio activity has dropped off.

Signed,

Person whose day job has been on or very near Sparks for years with a very active 5-à-7 gang who increasingly have to find watering holes which are not on Sparks.

Ah, so when you say 'patio activity' you mean 'number of patios'? For that I think I can agree. There's some super-bar patios (Biermarkt) but less from the smaller businesses (I'm remembering the huge patios between Elgin and Metcalfe.)

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

They have an 800M mortgage to pay, and another billion coming if phase 2 is built.

I thought that transit operations were separate from the capital cost of building light rail and its funding.

I also thought that if service is reduced, gas tax revenue is also reduced.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Stage 2 needs less than Stage 1. The east end won't need any detours versus what they have today, the west is about the sameish as right now during the construction, and the O-Train shutdown is mangeable by the R2 route.

Won't there be detours or at least an impact to the current route in the east end? Highway 174 has to be completely remodelled to build LRT down the centre median and they are widening the highway at the same time. It seems to me that there will be an impact to service in doing this.


Also, Phase 2 impacts various sections from Tunney's Pasture to Moodie and Bayshore. I know that certain parts will not be impacted, but certainly from Tunney's to Dominion and from Greenbank to Moodie and likely around Baseline. Also, the Trillium Line is closed for 15 months requiring replacement service the entire time. Isn't R2 detour service? This is all pretty significant.


I find some of what is happening hard to believe.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I thought that transit operations were separate from the capital cost of building light rail and its funding.

I also thought that if service is reduced, gas tax revenue is also reduced.

There is only one taxpayer.

I don't think service is being reduced, those are the 300 drivers we were paying to sit in line on Albert and Slater.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I thought that transit operations were separate from the capital cost of building light rail and its funding.

Sort of. Part of OC Transpo's regular annual budget includes a capital budget, and then the city has separate capital budgets for major projects. The LRT is mostly funded from the latter but partially from the former. Most of the money being saved from switching to the LRT is being used to finance an increase in the former, so effectively a redirection from operating to capital.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I also thought that if service is reduced, gas tax revenue is also reduced.

Sort of. I think there's some sort of formula about how if annual city funding for OC falls below a certain point, then certain provincial funding streams are lost but I don't get how exactly it works. But I imagine that capital funding counts too, so the city won't get punished on this one.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You know you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

That's your perception. And it's not reality.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You say that transit makes little difference downtown and then you say people can use transit when drunk at a downtown bar.

Transit makes little to no difference to the vibrancy of a downtown area. That is what I am talking about.

When it comes to using transit to access entertainment venues, I am suggesting that proximity to the line and operating hours matter far more than transfers and service frequency. Somebody who is inebriated can't drive. So the alternative to transit is a taxi or Uber and those are far more expensive. So with that in mind, having a transfer or two is not as much of an impediment to use.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Funny, my comments about the past are ridiculous while your past experiences are fully valid. We are actually talking about the exact same thing. Having a transit system that is reliable and frequent enough that we can easily get home without the need of a car.

I am not a fan of airy-fairy circular discusssions about how nice it would be to have buses every 5 mins in front of my house, when I know such talk is neither productive or confidence inspiring. I prefer to stick to discussions that are at least marginally realistic and within the realm of what can be accomplished with the tax base of this city and the community patterns that exist.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't know why you think that I don't understand about budgets. I do.

Cause you stay stuff like this:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't expect the world. Money should become available even from Phase 1 and that should be reinvested. If there is no money, I think the public should be told why.

Such issues are routinely discussed at Council. And in this case, you seem to be mixing up capital with operating expenditures as well.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is only one taxpayer.

I don't think service is being reduced, those are the 300 drivers we were paying to sit in line on Albert and Slater.

To be fair, Council and OC Transpo should have moved those drivers and buses towards an increase in feeder services.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

To be fair, Council and OC Transpo should have moved those drivers and buses towards an increase in feeder services.

Then who pays for the LRT?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Then who pays for the LRT?

We do. They could have taken the one time hit to increase taxes to dramatically improve local service with drivers and buses getting freed up.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We do. They could have taken the one time hit to increase taxes to dramatically improve local service with drivers and buses getting freed up.

The politics of welcoming a new transit line with a big unrelated tax increase are pretty bad. The economics of spending a lot of money for pretty limited benefit isn't great either.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Meanwhile in Waterloo . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zklh3mGQgRA

I'm really rooting for KW, they are leading the way and showing LRT isn't just a big city solution. I think their delay is more embarrassing than ours though. All the nice new infrastructure sitting there and still not enough trains to open it.