Amazon HQ2 bid

[Triptychtwo]

Originally Posted by paytonc

OK, I haven't read the full document, but the only text mention of the MEDO is:

"Owner shall not seek or solicit or accept any proposal of...[agencies] other than Invest Atlanta regarding any economic development incentives... unless the recipient of the incentive(s) benefit is a Major Economic Development Opportunity"

I read this as saying that CIM gets incentives regardless. However, they can't come back and demand more incentives from Atlanta/Fulton/Georgia/etc. If a MEDO happens (and yes, that's legalese for HQ2), then the owner can get additional city/county/state incentives.

This is saying, CIM get's their Invest Atlanta incentives only for a minimum $4 billion dollar project but cannot get ANY OTHER incentives, which is absurd for this complex of a project and binding agreement which would be idiotic for the developer to not seek state-level incentives. Therefore, the deal is essentially dependent on HQ2.

"Owner shall not seek or solicit or accept any proposal of, or enter into any plan or agreement, with any other county, local government, development authority or quasi-governmental authority of the State of Georgia,"

[Libertarian]

Yeah, Crystal City is in near proximity to DCA, Metro, and the halls of congress. However, I hope if HQ2/DC is confirmed there will be an uprising of public anger against the fascism of Amazon and government being in bed together like that. Any action will have to come from the grassroots and not the corrupted media.

[AlwaysMoving]

Originally Posted by Triptychtwo

This is saying, CIM get's their Invest Atlanta incentives only for a minimum $4 billion dollar project but cannot get ANY OTHER incentives, which is absurd for this complex of a project and binding agreement which would be idiotic for the developer to not seek state-level incentives. Therefore, the deal is essentially dependent on HQ2.

The tenant(s) of the new gulch project can seek City and State incentives. It's just the developer that is capped to only the Invest Atlanta incentives unless it's Amazon.

Also, the final sentence does allow CIM an avenue to seek more incentives outside Invest Atlanta but they can't negatively impact property taxes. Here is the last sentence:

If the desired economic development incentive is not offered by Invest Atlanta, or if the desired economic development incentive is offered by Invest Atlanta but Invest Atlanta denies the request, Owner shall be free to seek such economic development incentive from another entity as long as such incentive does not result in the reduction of ad valorem real property taxes on the Project

[Triptychtwo]

Originally Posted by AlwaysMoving

The tenant(s) of the new gulch project can seek City and State incentives. It's just the developer that is capped to only the Invest Atlanta incentives unless it's Amazon.

Also, the final sentence does allow CIM an avenue to seek more incentives outside Invest Atlanta but they can't negatively impact property taxes.

Agree, but putting a cap on incentives just at the IA level for CIM is a bit of an exception. You would think a $4-11 billion development would extremely limited in "incentives" just from the COA.

[AlwaysMoving]

Does the state usually give tax breaks to developers or do they normally focus on the employer?

[Triptychtwo]

Originally Posted by AlwaysMoving

Does the state usually give tax breaks to developers or do they normally focus on the employer?

Unusual situation when the developer here is required to accept an incentives deal required to get the employer that the state would like to incentivize.

[ugadawgs200]

Originally Posted by Triptychtwo

This is saying, CIM get's their Invest Atlanta incentives only for a minimum $4 billion dollar project but cannot get ANY OTHER incentives, which is absurd for this complex of a project and binding agreement which would be idiotic for the developer to not seek state-level incentives. Therefore, the deal is essentially dependent on HQ2.

"Owner shall not seek or solicit or accept any proposal of, or enter into any plan or agreement, with any other county, local government, development authority or quasi-governmental authority of the State of Georgia,"

EXACTLY. The city council messaging is off on this too. CIM only gets the incentives IF they spend the money ($500mm+ off the bat!) to develop the area and land a once in a life time economic project. City Council could screw up what is undoubtedly a once in a lifetime opportunity for this city. I know the folks involved, they are ready to go, timing is important, and the city of Atlanta will regret this for generations if city council causes the CIM deal to fall apart

This is NOT money from the city's general fund, this is $$$ that the developers only get if they create the infrastructure and invest enough to generate property tax to offset it. It's literally as good a deal as this city will see. Very frustrating to see city politics play out like this on something potentially this great

[KevinAtl]

https://atlanta.curbed.com/2018/9/12/17850958/amazon-hq2-gulch-deal-developer-downtown

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by ugadawgs200

EXACTLY. The city council messaging is off on this too. CIM only gets the incentives IF they spend the money ($500mm+ off the bat!) to develop the area and land a once in a life time economic project. City Council could screw up what is undoubtedly a once in a lifetime opportunity for this city. I know the folks involved, they are ready to go, timing is important, and the city of Atlanta will regret this for generations if city council causes the CIM deal to fall apart

This is NOT money from the city's general fund, this is $$$ that the developers only get if they create the infrastructure and invest enough to generate property tax to offset it. It's literally as good a deal as this city will see. Very frustrating to see city politics play out like this on something potentially this great

Since you know the people involved, is there any hope at all for a MMPT in The Gulch?

If we want to talk about regrets, at the least not leaving the window open for the establishment of a central transportation hub in the most prime spot in all of Metro Atlanta (basically, the point where all of the region's potential commuter rail lines would meet) will be a big mistake.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

Since you know the people involved, is there any hope at all for a MMPT in The Gulch?

If we want to talk about regrets, at the least not leaving the window open for the establishment of a central transportation hub in the most prime spot in all of Metro Atlanta (basically, the point where all of the region's potential commuter rail lines would meet) will be a big mistake.

I would think that NS is trying to shut that down. Since the state owned rail line to Chattanooga ends there, it is possible a single platform for a Marietta commuter line could exist, but I doubt a fully functional MMPT is possible

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by montydawg

I would think that NS is trying to shut that down. Since the state owned rail line to Chattanooga ends there, it is possible a single platform for a Marietta commuter line could exist, but I doubt a fully functional MMPT is possible

Doesn't mean that couldn't change in the future. CSX for example is now giving up some of its capacity for a rail line to Cobb County.

And if NS wants to be a good corporate citizen when they move their HQ here, I would hope they'd be willing to work with the city / state to allow passenger rail on their tracks as well.

[ugadawgs200]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

Since you know the people involved, is there any hope at all for a MMPT in The Gulch?

If we want to talk about regrets, at the least not leaving the window open for the establishment of a central transportation hub in the most prime spot in all of Metro Atlanta (basically, the point where all of the region's potential commuter rail lines would meet) will be a big mistake.

The short answer is YES. They are building a $500mm platform above the rail lines. Several of the rail lines are not even active right now and were built for when Atlanta was at a lower grade. It's in CIM's interest to include transit. As an Atlanta citizen, trust me don't be worried about this. It's not an end all be all for an MMPT. The facts are that the MMPT as proposed is beautiful and wonderful, but simply not practical or economical with the model they proposed. If there was any chance it was an economic success, Norfolk Southern would not be offloading their rights to the land and their space. CIM is building a platform at street level which keeps the possibility of an MMPT. The reality is that there probably will be additional transit to the site but it won't be as grand as that grand vision...that was simply a concept and amazing video but there is no money to pay for it and beyond that, absolutely no way that the proposed concept MMPT would generate any sales tax.

I am a longtime lurker here and on the other boards and don't post, but I can't sit quietly anymore knowing that there's a chance that city council could balk at this deal. Have the politics been played perfectly? probably not. But that is not CIM's fault. This is truly the only chance Atlanta has to fill the Gulch, and fill it with a high quality development AND potentially a city changing corporate relocation (or 2+)

PS: Don't be put off by the original renderings if you weren't jazzed. Trust the process

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by ugadawgs200

The short answer is YES. They are building a $500mm platform above the rail lines. Several of the rail lines are not even active right now and were built for when Atlanta was at a lower grade. It's in CIM's interest to include transit. As an Atlanta citizen, trust me don't be worried about this. It's not an end all be all for an MMPT. The facts are that the MMPT as proposed is beautiful and wonderful, but simply not practical or economical with the model they proposed. If there was any chance it was an economic success, Norfolk Southern would not be offloading their rights to the land and their space. CIM is building a platform at street level which keeps the possibility of an MMPT. The reality is that there probably will be additional transit to the site but it won't be as grand as that grand vision...that was simply a concept and amazing video but there is no money to pay for it and beyond that, absolutely no way that the proposed concept MMPT would generate any sales tax.

I am a longtime lurker here and on the other boards and don't post, but I can't sit quietly anymore knowing that there's a chance that city council could balk at this deal. Have the politics been played perfectly? probably not. But that is not CIM's fault. This is truly the only chance Atlanta has to fill the Gulch, and fill it with a high quality development AND potentially a city changing corporate relocation (or 2+)

PS: Don't be put off by the original renderings if you weren't jazzed. Trust the process

Thanks for the detailed answer. I really appreciate it.

I don't reside in Atlanta proper, but I am in a suburb that sits right along one of the rail lines that would benefit greatly from passenger rail service, and not allowing for the MMPT in the future would significantly handicap that possibility (if not kill it entirely)

I do feel a lot better now knowing at least the development plans in the near term won't eliminate the infrastructure for a central transportation hub. I wish CIM would have done a better job of explaining things during the public hearing the same way you did here.

That would also be part of the reason for the backlash too. Yeah, it's a massive and transfomative development with or without rail, but in a city where the traffic conrinues to get progreasively worse due to limited alternative modes of transportarion besides the automobile, to buy land knowing that it's critical to expanding Atlanta's public transit system and then say passenger rail is "not a consideration" while in the same breath asking the city to exempt you from paying taxes that can go towards transit investment would understandably bother people.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/atlanta.cur...plans-jeopardize-regional-rail-potential

https://threadatl.tumblr.com/post/177271978666/come-group-shuts-down-atlantas-regional-rail

https://saportareport.com/cim-needs-to-i...imodal-station-in-its-gulch-development/

https://www.gulchrail.org

[Atlanta3000]

MUST WATCH - CITY COUNCIL MEETING ON GULCH

I found a video of the City Council Meeting on the Gulch from Tuesday. So if anyone has any doubt this is not about Amazon watch the part when Mayor Bottoms speaks before the City Council. Mayor Bottoms is a f'en Rockstar and her performance was Oscar worthy. See for yourself...

Link to City Council Meeting on Gulch - Jump to 2 hours 19 minutes for the real action:

http://ec4.cc/she645cf

[Atlanta3000]

Great Discussion on Reddit concerning the Gulch and the Master Agreement being reviewed by City Council

Triptychtwo, who also posts here, has started a great post concerning the Gulch contract between the CoA and CIM Group and the connection to HQ2.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Atlanta/comments/9f7d3b/amazon_hq2_and_city_council_gulch_msa_language/

[wonshirim]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Great Discussion on Reddit concerning the Gulch and the Master Agreement being reviewed by City Council

Triptychtwo, who also posts here, has started a great post concerning the Gulch contract between the CoA and CIM Group and the connection to HQ2.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Atlanta/comments/9f7d3b/amazon_hq2_and_city_council_gulch_msa_language/

TRUCK YEAH!!

The fact that this "company" wanted the deal closed "last quarters" sounds like strong evidence that we won. There's no chance the City Council kills this though right?

https://youtu.be/rf7GfUORHtw?t=47s

[skyscraperpage17]

In that Reddit thread, the user named "time_for pretzels" makes a fair rebuttal:

"Why not link to a source that puts that quote into context? That's just a definition. The only place the term is used in the document is in this paragraph:...

...This is just saying that the project owner won't try to seek funding from other government agencies/authorities besides Invest Atlanta UNLESS the project is part of a "Major Economic Development Opportunity", AKA Amazon HQ2.

This doesn't mean they're voting on an HQ2 tax incentive proposal at all, it means that they can only go after more funding if we do get HQ2.

The actual document for anyone who wants to read it:"


In response, after being pressed by another user named "Autolycus25" (also an active user on City Data), Triptychtwo finally admits that he's merely speculating and doesn't know for sure that Amazon has selected Atlanta:

"Reaching? I've stated very clearly this is not definitive evidence that HQ2 is coming to Atlanta, but certainly an interesting data point that they are voting on language that clearly refers to HQ2.

Invest Atlanta is city of Atlanta only entity, has nothing to do with the State of Georgia. This is language preventing CIM from receiving any other incentives from the State, which would be the exception in a majority of the cases.

This is standard? You only get to deal with the COA? Or nothing at all? And for a $4 BILLION dollar project? That would impact the entire state and region? No transportation incentives, no energy incentives, no other economic incentives of any kind? Oh and by the way you take the risk on the bonds? COA has no exposure?

I guess we'll see who's right/wrong in a few weeks, looking forward to it."

[AlwaysMoving]

The paragraph is about the government incentives the developer gets if it's NOT Amazon. If it is Amazon or a very large company then the paragraph becomes irrelevant and CIM can get incentives from other places.

The paragraph shows that CIM and the City of Atlanta see the possibility of the Gulch being developed without Amazon as a tenant.

[bigstick]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

MUST WATCH - CITY COUNCIL MEETING ON GULCH

I found a video of the City Council Meeting on the Gulch from Tuesday. So if anyone has any doubt this is not about Amazon watch the part when Mayor Bottoms speaks before the City Council. Mayor Bottoms is a f'en Rockstar and her performance was Oscar worthy. See for yourself...

Link to City Council Meeting on Gulch - Jump to 2 hours 19 minutes for the real action:

http://ec4.cc/she645cf

The city council is a joke...

[Atlanta3000]

Let's Put Our Thinking Caps On.....

Can we all agree?

• If the City Council and/or the Mayor said the incentives being discussed for the Gulch development are really for HQ2 this would turn into a Media Circus for follow up City Council meetings because they are open to the public? (Right now the City Council and Mayor are scheduled to have a working session tomorrow and they have their final vote on Monday).
• If my understanding is correct, the Agreement is basically saying in the absence of Major Economic Development Opportunity, the CoA will be providing $1.2 Billion in incentives to CIM Group for the development of the Gulch. If however, a "Major Economic Development Opportunity" is part of the equation the incentives could then top $2 Billion. The Agreement even defined "Major Economic Development Opportunity" and it aligns exactly to HQ2.

Let's break it down further

On the Second bullet above, the Agreement while it is focused on incentives to CIM GROUP for the Gulch development - IT ALSO INCLUDES INCENTIVES IF AMAZON LOCATES TO THE GULCH via the "Major Economic Development Opportunity" definition. This is important. Included already in the Agreement are incentives for AMAZON's HQ2. Therefore, there will not need to be another 600 page friggin' Agreement and City Council meeting(s) if Amazon selects Atlanta because it is already baked into this Agreement. Honestly, anyone with a basic level of intelligence should understand why they did it this way.

Remember Governor Deal also has been given authorization by the State Legislature without the need for a Special Session, an incentive package for Amazon as well. Why do you think they did that?

BECAUSE AMAZON HAS TOLD THE STATE AND CITY THEY SELECTED ATLANTA AND IT IS TIME TO SHUT THIS MOTHER FUCKER DOWN!