Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The idea is that one entrance means more eyes / flow concentrated at one point, discouraging crime.

Is this borne out by the evidence? I remember the downtown stations of the Toronto subway as having access points on all four quadrants of their intersections, and I don't recall that being cited as a cause of crime.

The cynic in me says that the "safety" idea is just an unfounded claim whose real purpose is to be an excuse for cheaping out on station construction costs.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by dpogue

>snip<

This project is going to be super confusing for having a "Main Street station" and a "Granville station" that are not the existing Main Street or Granville stations.

there are several dozen "same name" stations in new york, and the locals distinguish one from the other by saying something like "34th flushing" or "34th 7av IRT" (there are actually 5 "34th st" stations on different lines across all the boros)

we can say learn to say "granville expo" or "granville millenium" to name a specific station & line when needed. i already say "vcc downtown " to distinguish from "vcc campus" even tho these are not the official names

[Metro-One]

I am sure they have some evidence / studies to the claim.

But like you I also suspect it is a convenient excuse for under building / cutting out costs.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by dpogue

Let's review some documents, shall we?

From Millenium Line Broadway Extension Project: Cost Report (March 2018) (emphasis mine):


This project is going to be super confusing for having a "Main Street station" and a "Granville station" that are not the existing Main Street or Granville stations.

80M platforms indicates the penny-pinching has already started

why not future-proof the build with 100M platforms, with 20M bricked off until the longer platform is needed? its cheaper to spend a few million per station later this century to knock down the false walls, rather spend billions to do open heart surgery on broadway at each station to build station extensions for 20M.

this worked OK for some canada line stations (ie: city hall)

and why not plan for 2nd entrances that can be opened up in the future?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Wait, first problem, single entrance points for all stations again???

Second point, does that cryptic remark regarding Cambie Station mean that it will have 2 entrance points (a new one plus existing Canada Line), or (very worryingly) they are adding no new entrance point and relying entirely on the existing entrance for the entire hub????

i don't understand why they wouldn't use the entrance space at Crossroads the city asked the developer to prep for when building on that corner (the former lulu lemon space).

no doubt the connector under cambie between the two station houses will be built . this makes sense. no? unless it has quietly fallen to the penny-pincher knife

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I've walked by the future site of the "Great Northern Way" station a few times recently. Has anybody seen what that might look like? Having both a station and the direct transition from above ground to underground will be interesting. It doesn't make sense to have the station above ground (like Marine Dr for example) as there's nothing at higher levels of any interest, and there's no major roads to cross. Maybe the station itself will be ground level?

bingo! winner here!!

as designed, the transition from elevated to tunnel means a ground-level station

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

bingo! winner here!!

as designed, the transition from elevated to tunnel means a ground-level station

Great Northern Way station will be underground, and I believe the platforms will actually extend underneath the intersection at Great Northern Way and Thornton Street. It will be similar to Inlet Centre in that regard.

The transition to underground will begin around Fraser Street and run behind the Emily Carr building. See the diagram on page 8 of this City of Vancouver document.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by dpogue

Great Northern Way station will be underground, and I believe the platforms will actually extend underneath the intersection at Great Northern Way and Thornton Street. It will be similar to Inlet Centre in that regard.

The transition to underground will begin around Fraser Street and run behind the Emily Carr building. See the diagram on page 8 of this City of Vancouver document.

are you reading the 2008 version or the 2012 revision?

2012 revision shows tunnels starting at thornton/gnw , with on-ground station north of the tunnels before the guideway curves to vcc running between bnsf yard and gnw campus

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

are you reading the 2008 version or the 2012 revision?

2012 revision shows tunnels starting at thornton/gnw , with on-ground station north of the tunnels before the guideway curves to vcc

Based on my understanding from the public consultation a few years ago, and from working in the area, the plan is to use the area between Fraser and Carolina Streets as a tunnel boring staging area.

Mockup image:

[WarrenC12]

Even the 2012 alignment won't work today IMO:

From CoV report:


Lot O already has new construction on it, including underground parking I would assume.

google maps of the area:

Map

I had originally assumed the station and underground portal would be approximately where the blue tarp is just beside the Carolina St cul-de-sac.

The entire area is quite small in comparison to what seems to be required for both a station and a transition from elevated to underground, including the turn. Hence my original question.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Even the 2012 alignment won't work today IMO:

From CoV report:


Lot O already has new construction on it, including underground parking I would assume.

google maps of the area:

Map

I had originally assumed the station and underground portal would be approximately where the blue tarp is just beside the Carolina St cul-de-sac.

The entire area is quite small in comparison to what seems to be required for both a station and a transition from elevated to underground, including the turn. Hence my original question.

I don't know. That building is in the shape of a hockey stick, with the blade at the same angle as the proposed station/track alignment (most likely done intentionally). I did a rough diagram in MyMaps of how the 1012 alignment would look today.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't know. That building is in the shape of a hockey stick, with the blade at the same angle as the proposed station/track alignment (most likely done intentionally). I did a rough diagram in MyMaps of how the 1012 alignment would look today.

Hmm, that is interesting. It just all looks very cramped, especially when you consider the construction project.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Hmm, that is interesting. It just all looks very cramped, especially when you consider the construction project.

If you look at the 2014 document, Figure 4 on page 9 shows the alignment has shifted very slightly south-east. There's a discussion about the staging area for the construction of the tunnel, (and the station, presumably), on page 13.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

If you look at the 2014 document, Figure 4 on page 9 shows the alignment has shifted very slightly south-east. There's a discussion about the staging area for the construction of the tunnel, (and the station, presumably), on page 13.

It still cuts under Lot O. That's a very sharp turn too, although the train will be at low speeds just entering or leaving the station area.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Hmm, that is interesting. It just all looks very cramped, especially when you consider the construction project.

It is cramped, but certainly do-able. If they have gone to the trouble of restricting the shape of the building, they may also have performed some preparatory work while the building was being constructed. Maybe not as far as we did here in Ottawa where they built an entire underground station beside a new building 5 years ago for an extension that won't be built for at least another 5 years.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It is cramped, but certainly do-able. If they have gone to the trouble of restricting the shape of the building, they may also have performed some preparatory work while the building was being constructed. Maybe not as far as we did here in Ottawa where they built an entire underground station beside a new building 5 years ago for an extension that won't be built for at least another 5 years.

cramped? maybe

lets remember the c-line station pits downtown were built within 1/2 M of existing structures with minimal settling, so the launch pit (and later on, the gnw station after tunneling is done) may be similar construction

[misher]

Anyone else wonder if Mid-2018 has passed yet? Want to bet they are behind schedule or waiting out the election before starting?

https://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/broadway-plan.aspx

[Vamo]

Originally Posted by Changing City

If you look at the 2014 document, Figure 4 on page 9 shows the alignment has shifted very slightly south-east. There's a discussion about the staging area for the construction of the tunnel, (and the station, presumably), on page 13.

Yes, there is a ROW on this little corner: there's also no parking underneath to accommodate the station.
Also the tunnel entrance should be before the turn, east of the Monte-Clark Gallery, behind ECUAD (the red gallery should go down during construction).

[Aroundtheworld]

Hi everyone, I've been visiting UBC campus quite a bit these past few days and it got me thinking how critical it is to extend the line to UBC as soon as the Central Broadway section is done and how massive a shift in ridership it will cause once it is complete.

A lot of planners look at the portion from Arbutus and think it's pretty low density and it doesn't make sense to prioritize building a line there. They aren't completely wrong; that part of the city is at a lower scale than Central Broadway. However, they fail to take into account how massive a trip generator UBC is.

And it's just going to keep growing as a massive trip generator. The entire campus has been a construction site for the last 20 years and will continue to be one for the foreseeable future. The amount of new residences being built is staggering. While it should reduce the commuter effect, the fact is the university is also adding many new students.

The last point that I think a lot of people miss is that extending the line fully to UBC will change the gravity of the Skytrain network. It's not just people taking the 99 B-Line bus going to UBC. Virtually every bus route that goes to UBC is in the top 10 of bus routes when it comes to ridership. Think of the 25, 41, 49 etc. When Skytrain is fully extended to UBC, many of those people who currently take those routes will now take the Millennium Line instead as it will be faster and more reliable. Expect Canada Line numbers to swell significantly one the extension is fully built.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

Hi everyone, I've been visiting UBC campus quite a bit these past few days and it got me thinking how critical it is to extend the line to UBC as soon as the Central Broadway section is done and how massive a shift in ridership it will cause once it is complete.

A lot of planners look at the portion from Arbutus and think it's pretty low density and it doesn't make sense to prioritize building a line there. They aren't completely wrong; that part of the city is at a lower scale than Central Broadway. However, they fail to take into account how massive a trip generator UBC is.

And it's just going to keep growing as a massive trip generator. The entire campus has been a construction site for the last 20 years and will continue to be one for the foreseeable future. The amount of new residences being built is staggering. While it should reduce the commuter effect, the fact is the university is also adding many new students.

The last point that I think a lot of people miss is that extending the line fully to UBC will change the gravity of the Skytrain network. It's not just people taking the 99 B-Line bus going to UBC. Virtually every bus route that goes to UBC is in the top 10 of bus routes when it comes to ridership. Think of the 25, 41, 49 etc. When Skytrain is fully extended to UBC, many of those people who currently take those routes will now take the Millennium Line instead as it will be faster and more reliable. Expect Canada Line numbers to swell significantly one the extension is fully built.

The problem isn't that they don't see how many people will ride the Broadway extension - they're well aware of that. The problem can boiled down to one simple thing - show me the money. We don't have the money to build the whole thing in a one go. Hell we're having trouble raising our share of just the Phase One to Arbutus money.

Then there's the issue of who has to do without. The entire region needs upgraded transit in some form. Money is being pulled from everywhere else to fund this. Everywhere outside of CoV primarily has 30 min (or less) bus service - that is not going to get increased. One reason Surrey is pushing LRT is because it's cheaper to build and they don't think they're going to get money to build Skytrain.

Personally I would love to see a lot more B-Line routes across the region already but that's been pushed back too, due to the simple reason of we don't have the money. So yeah, it would be great to have the Broadway extension built all at once - but unless you can get someone like Elon Musk to invest in it, it's just not going to happen.