Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Mac Write]

From that document it sounds like we are getting 101 train-cars not 56. So when will the 45 (ordered) arrive? and it seems that they will be 5-car based on that 4 doesn't go into 45 evenly.

[yesheh]

Not directly Vancouver related - but still very relevant -

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/08/how-america-killed-transit/568825/

In short - service drives demand. Of course, we know this in Vancouver already. Out in the Valley, I have a bus that goes by my house completely empty every 20 minutes; no one in my neighbourhood uses it (the problem is that it doesn't go anywhere useful), but it has been fascinating to me to see how full the FVExpress busses are every day and at all hours, despite the traffic. The demand is there for greater service, it just needs to go somewhere useful.

Also very interesting to see the comments re: light rail, and the maps of 30 minute transit in various American cities.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by yesheh

Not directly Vancouver related - but still very relevant -

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/08/how-america-killed-transit/568825/

In short - service drives demand. Of course, we know this in Vancouver already. Out in the Valley, I have a bus that goes by my house completely empty every 20 minutes; no one in my neighbourhood uses it (the problem is that it doesn't go anywhere useful), but it has been fascinating to me to see how full the FVExpress busses are every day and at all hours, despite the traffic. The demand is there for greater service, it just needs to go somewhere useful.

It’s a good article that summarizes the abysmal transit infrastructures in American cities.

***

On the FVX, I can confirm on the number of people taking that route. When it arrives to Langley, there are so many passengers transferring to the 555 heading west, especially during morning rush hour. It may be because it goes to relevant destinations such as UFV (although you need to transfer to the 3 and 12 on McCallum Rd), but the 555’s connection to the FVX is probably the catalyst of its rapidly growing ridership, which greatly differs it from a typical Abby bus route.

[Dengler Avenue]

I'm pretty surprised to hear FVX's success(?) despite gridlocks on Highway 1 during rush hour.

Now I wonder if it's possible to model a Sea-to-Sky Express that goes from Squamish to Horshoe Bay (if not Park Royal) after FVX. I'd prefer to see Highway 99 completely widened to 4 lanes with median divider first (and possibly interchange in place of lights at Britannia Beach too), though.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by yesheh

Not directly Vancouver related - but still very relevant -

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/08/how-america-killed-transit/568825/

In short - service drives demand. Of course, we know this in Vancouver already. Out in the Valley, I have a bus that goes by my house completely empty every 20 minutes; no one in my neighbourhood uses it (the problem is that it doesn't go anywhere useful), but it has been fascinating to me to see how full the FVExpress busses are every day and at all hours, despite the traffic. The demand is there for greater service, it just needs to go somewhere useful.

Also very interesting to see the comments re: light rail, and the maps of 30 minute transit in various American cities.

If you think about it service drives demand is the same idea as more freeway lanes bring induced demand. The difference is that induced demand on a freeway is a negative, but service drives demand on transit is a postive.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by yesheh

Not directly Vancouver related - but still very relevant -

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/08/how-america-killed-transit/568825/

In short - service drives demand. Of course, we know this in Vancouver already. Out in the Valley, I have a bus that goes by my house completely empty every 20 minutes; no one in my neighbourhood uses it (the problem is that it doesn't go anywhere useful), but it has been fascinating to me to see how full the FVExpress busses are every day and at all hours, despite the traffic. The demand is there for greater service, it just needs to go somewhere useful.

Also very interesting to see the comments re: light rail, and the maps of 30 minute transit in various American cities.

I honestly think that if bus service isn't frequent (15 min all day, every day minimum), there should be no service at all. It's just a waste of money. Even though our network is better than those American ones, we still have too many suburban routes that look like spaghetti and run every 30-60 minutes.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

I honestly think that if bus service isn't frequent (15 min all day, every day minimum), there should be no service at all. It's just a waste of money. Even though our network is better than those American ones, we still have too many suburban routes that look like spaghetti and run every 30-60 minutes.

Maple Ridge is the worst offender on low-frequency spaghetti routes. The routes serving its eastern side operate like they came straight from the 1980s, with buses only operating on weekdays running on two hour frequencies! Sixty minutes is bad enough in the ‘burbs, but Maple Ridge blows them out of the water.

Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge would perfectly fit the archetypal American car-ruled suburb by having the most dangerous bus stop on this continent and bus routes that are downright insufferable.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

Maple Ridge is the worst offender on low-frequency spaghetti routes. The routes serving its eastern side operate like they came straight from the 1980s, with buses only operating on weekdays running on two hour frequencies! Sixty minutes is bad enough in the ‘burbs, but Maple Ridge blows them out of the water.

Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge would perfectly fit the archetypal American car-ruled suburb by having the most dangerous bus stop on this continent and bus routes that are downright insufferable.

I grew up in East MR and trust me it is terrible. In the early 90s when we finally joined the GVRD and had a transit system that connected to Coquitlam and Vancouver it was a huge deal. But living semi-rural on the danged 749 (I think i was once called the 721) was terrible. Sometimes the bus just wouldn't show.

Today, they really need to at least get the community shuttle buses on the GPS so you can at least see it is coming and going to hourly service would be an improvement to help get some folks out of their car.

The reality is, if you live east of 232 you need a car.

[Express691]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bnao41tlFBe/?taken-by=yvr_transit_kid

My friend was walking by BTC along Ingleton and noticed this bus with an odd scheme... Rumour has it that this is a test scheme in preparation of the phasing out of the B-Lines.

Personally not a huge fan. Especially with B-Lines becoming a massive cultural icon, within the last 20 years, they could have just expanded from there - I mean they still got 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 199, 299, 399, 499, 599, 699, 799, 899, 909, 919, 929, 939, 949, 959, 969, 979, and possibly 198, 298, 398, 498, 598, 698, 798, 898.

Next thing you know, they start re-branding SkyTrain and SeaBus and every transit-related cultural icon

Skytrain -> Metro
Seabus -> Ferry
Expo -> Blue Line
Millennium -> Yellow Line
Canada Line -> Teal Line
CMBC -> Buses for Vancouver
TransLink -> Vancouver Transit System or Vancouver Metro

I mean, I'm all in for the service, but where's the special "Vancouver" part of it we can click with?

-sheesh-

[nname]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

I honestly think that if bus service isn't frequent (15 min all day, every day minimum), there should be no service at all.

Then there would be pretty much no service outside of Vancouver and part of Burnaby.

If fact, applying that criteria there would be pretty much no transit service in most places of the world. Even in Asia, the majority of the routes are less than every 15min outside of rush hours...

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I'm pretty surprised to hear FVX's success(?) despite gridlocks on Highway 1 during rush hour.

When the claim was made, I checked the ridership report. It was such as "success" that if it was under TransLink's jurisdiction, they would've killed it without a second thought. If I remembered correctly, the boarding per hour is around 7. In comparison, the bi-hourly #749 mentioned earlier have 9 boardings per hour, and it was ran by a mini-bus.

If a Sea-To-Sky transit is ever created, it would most likely be run by BC Transit as it would be a very heavily subsidized service like FVX.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Express691

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bnao41tlFBe/?taken-by=yvr_transit_kid

What the hell is this? Who though this was a good idea to completely rebrand the entire B-Line scheme? It’s just ridiculous, especially with the colour scheme choice they used for this bus. This may work for King County Metro, but for Vancouver?

[yesheh]

Originally Posted by nname

When the claim was made, I checked the ridership report. It was such as "success" that if it was under TransLink's jurisdiction, they would've killed it without a second thought. If I remembered correctly, the boarding per hour is around 7. In comparison, the bi-hourly #749 mentioned earlier have 9 boardings per hour, and it was ran by a mini-bus.

I just checked and this report does indeed show ridership in 2015 being under 7 rides an hour. However, surely this has grown, and in any case, this is a commuter long distance route, of course the number of rides an hour is going to be lower than a route with a higher density of stops. So I don't think that's a comparable. The buses are not standing room only, but it's a highway route, so I don't think you want people standing in the first place.

N.B. I have yet to ride the FVX, in fact I have yet to ride a bus in Abbotsford despite growing up there. It doesn't go anywhere I need to go regularly, or when it does, the times are impractical compared to driving.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by nname

Then there would be pretty much no service outside of Vancouver and part of Burnaby.

If fact, applying that criteria there would be pretty much no transit service in most places of the world. Even in Asia, the majority of the routes are less than every 15min outside of rush hours...

Basically what I'm describing is the Frequent Transit Network's criteria. So, no I don't believe this is unreasonable; a good portion of the region already has service at this level. What we need is more of it to be at this level.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I'm pretty surprised to hear FVX's success(?) despite gridlocks on Highway 1 during rush hour.

Now I wonder if it's possible to model a Sea-to-Sky Express that goes from Squamish to Horshoe Bay (if not Park Royal) after FVX. I'd prefer to see Highway 99 completely widened to 4 lanes with median divider first (and possibly interchange in place of lights at Britannia Beach too), though.

Would be pretty interesting to see BC Transit start intercity routes between disconnected BC Transit systems.

[Large Cat]

Can we all agree that the FVX should just continue to Lougheed Station? The reason for the transfer at Carvolth is purely administrative, and if it were removed, imagine the ridership increase! It would be a single transfer to Waterfront from Chilliwack.

Just need to decide who would run the new service, and whether it would be a part of Translink or not.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

Can we all agree that the FVX should just continue to Lougheed Station? The reason for the transfer at Carvolth is purely administrative, and if it were removed, imagine the ridership increase! It would be a single transfer to Waterfront from Chilliwack.

Just need to decide who would run the new service, and whether it would be a part of Translink or not.

The bigger question(?) is why Abbotsford and Mission City did not join GVRD like Maple Ridge did back in the days. Honestly if they did, there wouldn't be any administrative issue nowadays at all.

That said, I'm actually suggesting extending 555 all the way to Downtown Abbotsford (if not Bourquine) based on 3 preconditions:
(1) Abbotsford and Mission give up BC Transit and let Translink take over;
(2) Equally as important, widen Highway 1 to 6 (if not 8) lanes with HOV lanes on the left, with stops at 216th Street (Walnut Grove), 264th Street (Aldergrove) and possibly 304th Street too (I forgot what it's actually called);
(3) Subsequent to (2), there should be a connector service between Aldergrove and the area around 264th Street & Highway 1. (I guess in this case 503 should only go between Langley Centre and Abbotsford too.)

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

Just need to decide who would run the new service, and whether it would be a part of Translink or not.

Why not combine the responsibility between BCT and TL?

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

Basically what I'm describing is the Frequent Transit Network's criteria. So, no I don't believe this is unreasonable; a good portion of the region already has service at this level. What we need is more of it to be at this level.

Aside from Vancouver and Burnaby, the majority of the region's residents do not have reasonable access to the FTN. I think it's important to remember the success of the FTN (SkyTrain Services included) relies on a number of different types of services, including infrequent feeder services. There are lot of opportunities of course to improve the quality of these services, including route shortening and consolidation to enable increases in frequencies without additional OPEX, but one needs to recognize that there are some transit services that do not make sense to be served at high frequencies.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

The bigger question(?) is why Abbotsford and Mission City did not join GVRD like Maple Ridge did back in the days. Honestly if they did, there wouldn't be any administrative issue nowadays at all.

That said, I'm actually suggesting extending 555 all the way to Downtown Abbotsford (if not Bourquine) based on 3 preconditions:
(1) Abbotsford and Mission give up BC Transit and let Translink take over;
(2) Equally as important, widen Highway 1 to 6 (if not 8) lanes with HOV lanes on the left, with stops at 216th Street (Walnut Grove), 264th Street (Aldergrove) and possibly 304th Street too (I forgot what it's actually called);
(3) Subsequent to (2), there should be a connector service between Aldergrove and the area around 264th Street & Highway 1. (I guess in this case 503 should only go between Langley Centre and Abbotsford too.)

I think you’re referring to Mt. Lehman Rd as 304th where Highstreet Shopping Centre is on your 2nd point.

I find it questionable of Abby and Mission joining the GVRD due to their remote distances from major population centres, and car culture is ubiquitous in the Fraser Valley; Surrey is not very close to Downtown Abbotsford. They will also have to contribute their taxes to the GVRD.

***

The 503 should’ve cut to Langley Centre in the first place, especially when the B-Line comes into service and the 502 will be at 15 minute frequencies; it’ll just duplicate the two routes if they still keep it that way.

[Dengler Avenue]

Perhaps it was questionable to join back then, but nowdays it might actually make sense.

Didn't someone just say that unaffordable housing is pushing everybody out into the suburbs?