Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

I don't think much needs to said about the amount of face palm this contender for city hall's proposals for the Broadway corridor are:

http://hamdyel-rayes.ca/transportation-plan/

He wants to cancel the Broadway Skytrain extension, build a LRT for cheap, and use the savings to build student housing at UBC for the same money...

And he says he worked as a manager at Metro Vancouver...

Wow... some serious fear mongering there...

I also love how he says building Skytrain is wrong because it will only increase the land value and redevelopment... but LRT won’t... (yet in Surrey they claim the reverse for their preference of LRT over Skytrain.)

He also cites the length of construction time as a negative for Skytrain and that upon opening it will already be full... Does he not realize that construction time for a surface LRT along Broadway will be nearly the same and far more disruptive being along the surface the entire route, and has a far far far higher chance of opening full due to the much lower capacity...

I am going to stop now, far too many contradictions and obvious errors in logic and lack of basic research to unpack there...

[misher]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

I don't think much needs to said about the amount of face palm this contender for city hall's proposals for the Broadway corridor are:

http://hamdyel-rayes.ca/transportation-plan/

He wants to cancel the Broadway Skytrain extension, build a LRT for cheap, and use the savings to build student housing at UBC for the same money...

And he says he worked as a manager at Metro Vancouver...

How the hell are we going to get two street cars down Broadway. The lanes are already full.

I don't think UBC was meant to be a suburb, housing there is for students and workers. Traffic there already 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

What drugs is this guy on.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by misher

How the hell are we going to get two street cars down Broadway. The lanes are already full.

I don't think UBC was meant to be a suburb, housing there is for students and workers. Traffic there already 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

What drugs is this guy on.

following the surrey LRT model, and just eliminate the two centre lanes

if traffic clogs up the one remaining thru-traffic lane? eliminate the on-street parking for 77 blocks from commercial dr. to UBC to get a second traffic lane again.

let the nimby howling begin...

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

I don't think much needs to said about the amount of face palm this contender for city hall's proposals for the Broadway corridor are:

http://hamdyel-rayes.ca/transportation-plan/

He wants to cancel the Broadway Skytrain extension, build a LRT for cheap, and use the savings to build student housing at UBC for the same money...

And he says he worked as a manager at Metro Vancouver...

I guess for politicians like him, building an LRT (in this case, halfway to Arbutus) is quick enough for them to gain votes for “progress”; building a SkyTrain would take more than their term limit for them to complete.

Originally Posted by jsbertram

following the surrey LRT model, and just eliminate the two centre lanes

if traffic clogs up the one remaining thru-traffic lane? eliminate the on-street parking for 77 blocks from commercial dr. to UBC to get a second traffic lane again.

let the nimby howling begin...

There’s a sad trend happening in Metro Vancouver about having elected officials picking development-based slow transit that is so prevalent across the US border (I’m looking at you, Portland).

[s211]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

There’s a sad trend happening in Metro Vancouver about having elected officials picking development-based slow transit that is so prevalent across the US border (I’m looking at you, Portland).

Edmonton's also gone all perma-sploosh on slow rail transit, I'm pretty sure following the same hipster sploosh-on for anything Portland. They've turned their back on their original, forward-looking LRT line.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Linked-in profile.

Dude did a PhD in Civil/Enviromental engineering, and currently works in mental health and life coaching. I don't get it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by s211

Edmonton's also gone all perma-sploosh on slow rail transit, I'm pretty sure following the same hipster sploosh-on for anything Portland. They've turned their back on their original, forward-looking LRT line.

Less "following hipsters" and more "being goddamn misers." Unlike American cities, Edmonton at least has a past record of (mostly) keeping trains and traffic from screwing each other up; it's very possible that this is their Canada Line, and they'll say "lesson learned" and go back to proper separation for the next one.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Less "following hipsters" and more "being goddamn misers." Unlike American cities, Edmonton at least has a past record of (mostly) keeping trains and traffic from screwing each other up; it's very possible that this is their Canada Line, and they'll say "lesson learned" and go back to proper separation for the next one.

How can it be their Canada Line?

We built our Canada Line, said lesson learned, then afterwards decided to build an at grade (street grade!) LRT with (at best case scenario for the LRT) 40% the build out capacity of the Canada Line... (worst case is only 27% the capacity).

The only thing we learned was how to make the Canada Line look like one of the wisest decisions we ever made (remember, at one time it too was to be a surface LRT).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

following the surrey LRT model, and just eliminate the two centre lanes

if traffic clogs up the one remaining thru-traffic lane? eliminate the on-street parking for 77 blocks from commercial dr. to UBC to get a second traffic lane again.

let the nimby howling begin...

Parking on Broadway is silly. The curb lane should be a bus lane 24/7 (possibly also carpool).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The only thing we learned was how to make the Canada Line look like one of the wisest decisions we ever made (remember, at one time it too was to be a surface LRT).

Evergreen had a chance of being LRT too. Surrey City Council is the only one pushing hard for Surrey's line to be LRT. They can have it for all I care.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

I don't think much needs to said about the amount of face palm this contender for city hall's proposals for the Broadway corridor are:

http://hamdyel-rayes.ca/transportation-plan/

He wants to cancel the Broadway Skytrain extension, build a LRT for cheap, and use the savings to build student housing at UBC for the same money...

And he says he worked as a manager at Metro Vancouver...

That is pretty much a rip-off of what Patrick Condon has been saying for years. Here's a typical article.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Yup, practically every light rail advocate Condon's age uses either his talking points or Zwei's. Often verbatim.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

How can it be their Canada Line?

We built our Canada Line, said lesson learned, then afterwards decided to build an at grade (street grade!) LRT with (at best case scenario for the LRT) 40% the build out capacity of the Canada Line... (worst case is only 27% the capacity).

The only thing we learned was how to make the Canada Line look like one of the wisest decisions we ever made (remember, at one time it too was to be a surface LRT).

And yet Vancouver itself decided that from then on, we'd build big (e.g, Broadway). No reason why Edmonton City Council can't do the same, if only to avoid getting voted out by candidates who will.

[misher]

In Vancouver we are lucky that everything is quite predictable. We know were going to get bigger. We know what systems have worked in other cities and what hasn't.

We know we need this and we know its going forward. We know that someday, all of Greater Vancouver will be connected by skytrain. Lets pay for it now instead of dilly dallying with interim solutions we will just get rid of later.

[SpongeG]

Vaughn Palmer: SkyTrain construction soars to $500M per Km, but why is 'confidential?'

The NDP commissioned the detailed budget for the project, vetted the numbers, and know what each component is expected to cost. They just aren’t telling the taxpaying public anything about it.

VAUGHN PALMER Updated: September 6, 2018

VICTORIA — At first glance the report on the Broadway SkyTrain extension posted on the transportation ministry website holds out the hope of shedding light on how construction costs have soared to half a billion dollars per kilometre.

“Cost report,” it says, followed by a comprehensive statement of purpose: “This document details the preliminary cost estimate of the reference concept design for the Millennium Line Broadway extension project.”

But the first indication that the contents offered less than full disclosure came when I clinked on the link and learned that the copy released for public consumption had been “redacted” and, yes, “sanitized.”

I’ll say it was.

Doubtless the unsanitized and unredacted version of the 13-page report from March of this year contained a full breakdown of the cost of extending the existing SkyTrain line from the Clark Drive campus of Vancouver Community College westward along Broadway to Arbutus.

“The estimate assumes that all the work is carried out as one single project and covers costs including project management, preliminary design and technical investigations, engagement and consultation, procurement, design, construction, risk, contingencies and interest during construction,” according to the text.

The methodology was thorough. The costs include money spent to date on planning the project, through the 18 months or so it will take to put the expansion out to tender and award the contract, and then the years of construction up to a targeted in-service date of 2025.

Finally the report from the provincial Partnerships B.C. agency insists that all the numbers have been checked and double checked: “A due diligence review of the capital cost estimate was conducted, which confirmed that the budget currently carried is reasonable to design, construct and commissioning of the approximately 5.7 (kilometre) extension to the existing Millennium Line SkyTrain network.”

In short, the New Democrats commissioned the detailed budget for the project, vetted the numbers, and know what each component is expected to cost. They just aren’t telling the taxpaying public anything about it.

For when you get the dollar breakdowns on Page 9 of the report, every last detail is blanked out in the name of confidentiality and protecting the public interest.

For instance, five of the 5.7 kilometres will consist of twin, bored tunnels, hence the name Broadway Subway. The estimated cost of doing this is withheld.

...

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columni...rs-to-500m-per-k-but-why-is-confidential

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

That is pretty much a rip-off of what Patrick Condon has been saying for years. Here's a typical article.

Yeah, my first reaction to this was that in a sense it provides us with a public referendum on the Condon vision for Vancouver. One that I hope fails miserably.

Condon doesn't seem to understand the concept of a transit backbone to provide fast and easy mobility across the region - he's stuck in the mindset that all jobs and services should be local so that people don't have to travel far to access them, which would allow for slower transit system that's integrated into the streetscape.

I'm all for local services, and it's one of the things I love about Vancouver compared to the suburbs. But that ignores the fundamental reality that some facilities such as universities, specialist hospitals, stadiums, theatres, airports, business districts, etc. simply aren't available in every neighborhood - people have to travel to them from all over the lower mainland. And the price of housing forces many of the people who work in these facilities to live far away and commute to them. That means we need a transit backbone that can move people quickly and efficiently. It's absolutely essential. SkyTrain is to transit as freeways are to cars.

For the life of me I don't understand why he doesn't get this, or why he thinks that an LRT solution for local mobility is so much superior for citizens to buses with closer stop spacing that pick up and deliver people right at the sidewalk.

We can't live with buses alone, of course, but with a grade separated rapid transit system I just don't see a need spend a pile of precious money in a completely different technology to provide intermediate capacity. That money can be put to much more effective use on improving the backbone and the routes that feed it.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

In short, the New Democrats commissioned the detailed budget for the project, vetted the numbers, and know what each component is expected to cost. They just aren’t telling the taxpaying public anything about it.

For when you get the dollar breakdowns on Page 9 of the report, every last detail is blanked out in the name of confidentiality and protecting the public interest.

So... exactly the same as the BC Liberals Massey Bridge project, and every other large scale project before it goes out to tender?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm all for local services, and it's one of the things I love about Vancouver compared to the suburbs. But that ignores the fundamental reality that some facilities such as universities, specialist hospitals, stadiums, theatres, airports, business districts, etc. simply aren't available in every neighborhood - people have to travel to them from all over the lower mainland. And the price of housing forces many of the people who work in these facilities to live far away and commute to them. That means we need a transit backbone that can move people quickly and efficiently. It's absolutely essential. SkyTrain is to transit as freeways are to cars.

For the life of me I don't understand why he doesn't get this, or why he thinks that an LRT solution for local mobility is so much superior for citizens to buses with closer stop spacing that pick up and deliver people right at the sidewalk.

To which him and his groupies go "Pfft, who goes to the hospital or airport every day?"

Answer: a lot of people. Non-work/school trips are 35% of all movement within Vancouver proper. If people truly head straight to work and back like he thinks they do, then another 17% is trying to get home from the theatre/stadium/etc - that's 52% total.

It's not even a question of adding more retail or more housing, because even the NSA's PRISM simply cannot predict everybody's movements 24/7. Take Denny's - there's one at Burrard and Broadway just five blocks from home, but since the place is dead, service is slow and food is often over or undercooked, my family will drive/ride 6-7km to the one at Marine Drive. Do Condonites think LRT will make us move to Marpole? If yes, I hope they realize that then I'll be riding back to Kitsilano for the Chapters store.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Yeah, my first reaction to this was that in a sense it provides us with a public referendum on the Condon vision for Vancouver. One that I hope fails miserably.

Condon doesn't seem to understand the concept of a transit backbone to provide fast and easy mobility across the region - he's stuck in the mindset that all jobs and services should be local so that people don't have to travel far to access them, which would allow for slower transit system that's integrated into the streetscape.

...

For the life of me I don't understand why he doesn't get this, or why he thinks that an LRT solution for local mobility is so much superior for citizens to buses with closer stop spacing that pick up and deliver people right at the sidewalk.

Condon is known for denying the dire consequences of his pious reasoning. That's no surprise since he doesn't have the mindset of a civil engineer.

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

We can't live with buses alone, of course, but with a grade separated rapid transit system I just don't see a need spend a pile of precious money in a completely different technology to provide intermediate capacity. That money can be put to much more effective use on improving the backbone and the routes that feed it.

"Then there wouldn't be any local jobs close to people's homes!"
-Condon

On a serious note, this may be worrying when there are a selective group of people who think this is a good idea, and want to elect a person like Condon that could make this "streetcar revival" fantasy a reality, while completely oblivious from the exorbitant costs of building and maintaining the streetcar infrastructure, not to mention the complicated logistics of keeping the traffic flowing.

[SpongeG]

It would be a disaster. Perhaps we pool some money together and fly him to Melbourne and let him ride the streetcars er trams there. Melbourne is great and has an extensive train system in addition to their trams. But the trams useless for a commuter. I took it to try it out and we hit one area stuck in traffic, it probably took a good 20 minutes to move about 3 blocks. Had I known how close I was to my destination I would have got off and just walked the last few blocks.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

It would be a disaster. Perhaps we pool some money together and fly him to Melbourne and let him ride the streetcars er trams there. Melbourne is great and has an extensive train system in addition to their trams. But the trams useless for a commuter. I took it to try it out and we hit one area stuck in traffic, it probably took a good 20 minutes to move about 3 blocks. Had I known how close I was to my destination I would have got off and just walked the last few blocks.

New Urbanist types have a bit of selective bias in play - they completely fail to notice that the tram cities they admire also have metros and/or commuter trains to go with the trams. Said trams basically act as bigger trolley buses.