Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Denvergotback]

Originally Posted by San Diego-Honolulu

Some of you guys are ridiculous. You complain, cry, and say Salt Lake City doesn't have enough development. When news finally does come across that there are projects on line, some of you go as far to say you hope the plans fall through. Beggars cannot be choosers. These projects around the Gateway Center are good for the city and great for that area. It's actually nice seeing a hotel that isn't a box-shape design, like every other single one in the city. This should be welcomed and it only helps push development and attention to a different part of the city. The Gateway Center district has the potential to be a smaller version of what the Pearl district is to Portland. I like the hotel's brown warm tone. It reminds of the Hyatt Regency in downtown San Antonio. That hotel has a very warm feel and vibe to it.

You can want more development and more urban projects, but there really is nothing wrong with pointing out how bad some projects are. Or even wishing to demand better designs.

Imagine for one second looking at your living room, you look at the walls and you see it desperately needs improvement. You decide to hire someone to splash on some new paint and when its all over with they did a bad job, the walls still look terrible... What was the point of the improvement if it was done like crap?

There is nothing wrong in wanting a lot of development, but what is the point if its done like crap? I understand why people are upset about these renderings, people want a great urban center, but how embarrassing is it if it comes looking like crap? The point of development around the gateway is to improve the area.

So back to painting your living room, say you have been wishing for sometime and really wanting to paint the walls, but you cant afford it. So you save up money for some time and wallah, the time has come.... YOU CAN PAINT YOUR LIVING ROOM WALLS!!! You get all excited and you hire the team to paint your walls and it comes out looking like garbage... Don't you wish you saw a rendering of how crappy that paint job would look like ahead of time so you can demand the changes necessary to make it a quality job?

But like you said yourself, "beggars cant be choosers"... So I guess since you were wanting that paint job for so long and you finally can afford it, even though it came out crappy, you cant complain... right?

So where is the problem in everyone on this page demanding and wanting an actual quality project that will actually improve the area?

Sorry I know my analogy was also garbage, just like the paint job... but I hope it got the point across...

[nushiof]

Weren't some earlier renderings of this UP hotel released a couple of years ago? If memory serves, they weren't nearly as bad as these, and were more consistent in color and finish with the UP building. Can some dig those up?

[Hatman]

I will refrain from calling the hotel a 'monstrosity' and other unhelpful phrases because I don't think the hotel building on its own is a bad design - it's just out of place. Here is my hopefully helpful suggestion:

Wayfinding in Themed Design: The “Weenie”
http://theoryofthemeparks.blogspot.com/2...ign-weenie.html?_sm_au_=isVFWZKNnbjQMstN

Here is the TL;DR:

What is a “Weenie”?
The “weenie” is an architectural concept named such by Disney Imagineering in describing “visual magnets” that draw guests from one area to another. Through these “magnets”, Disney is able to draw guests to the far reaches of its parks and create avenues of predictable foot traffic.

The classic example is the big castle in the middle of Disneyland; it is a unique and attractive architectural landmark that helps guests find their way around the park just by being visible from many different locations. Here is a less intuitive weenie - the Main Street Train Station in the Magic Kingdom in Florida:


The idea here is that most guests would not want to go back toward the park exit. Why would they? There are no rides or attractions on Main Street. But Main Street is always crowded because there is a unique sense of place given to it by the prominent train station at the head of the street.

This UP Depot hotel idea takes an obvious 'weenie' and completely covers it up. There is no longer any sense of place, no intuitive navigation, and no natural reason for people to wander up the steps toward the hotel. This is sort of like when Disney covered up their original 'weenie' in their Hollywood Studios park (the Grumman theater replica) with an inferior one (a big floating hat and disembodied Mickey hand). Reviews of the park became so lousy that they eventually had to take the embarrassing step of removing the big hat, which had been the park's icon up to that point (a BIG deal for Disney fans).

Pictures:


Taking down the big hat:


So to the Gateway Owners: please learn from the company that perfected the 'weenie' design philosophy and do not cover up your best weenie. Any mall - or whatever you want to call yours - is basically just a theme park without rides or admission prices. If you don't follow the basic design philosophies of good theme parks, your visitors will know that something is off and be less inclined to visit again or spend their money.

Building the hotel in two wings may cost more now, but it will earn you so much more money in the long run. We want the Gateway to succeed - this is why we give our feedback.

[nushiof]

https://www.ksl.com/article/46379905/salt-lake-hosts-speed-dating-event-for-convention-industry

Beck noted Visit Salt Lake is ahead of its booking pace from last year and events such as the marketplace are helping to maintain positive momentum. One of the critical pieces that could push the area's profile even higher would be a convention hotel, which he said is still under consideration by local civic leaders.

"It's 'the little project that could' and it's still moving," Beck said. No timetable has been set for the project, he noted, though he is optimistic it will come to fruition in the not-so-distant future.

[asies1981]

Update on the Centro Civico's planned housing development.

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Originally Posted by San Diego-Honolulu

Some of you guys are ridiculous. You complain, cry, and say Salt Lake City doesn't have enough development. When news finally does come across that there are projects on line, some of you go as far to say you hope the plans fall through. Beggars cannot be choosers. These projects around the Gateway Center are good for the city and great for that area. It's actually nice seeing a hotel that isn't a box-shape design, like every other single one in the city. This should be welcomed and it only helps push development and attention to a different part of the city. The Gateway Center district has the potential to be a smaller version of what the Pearl district is to Portland. I like the hotel's brown warm tone. It reminds of the Hyatt Regency in downtown San Antonio. That hotel has a very warm feel and vibe to it.

The biggest criticizer on this site saying we aren't allowed to critisize...

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Hatman

I will refrain from calling the hotel a 'monstrosity' and other unhelpful phrases because I don't think the hotel building on its own is a bad design - it's just out of place. Here is my hopefully helpful suggestion:

Wayfinding in Themed Design: The “Weenie”
http://theoryofthemeparks.blogspot.com/2...ign-weenie.html?_sm_au_=isVFWZKNnbjQMstN

Here is the TL;DR:


The classic example is the big castle in the middle of Disneyland; it is a unique and attractive architectural landmark that helps guests find their way around the park just by being visible from many different locations. Here is a less intuitive weenie - the Main Street Train Station in the Magic Kingdom in Florida:


The idea here is that most guests would not want to go back toward the park exit. Why would they? There are no rides or attractions on Main Street. But Main Street is always crowded because there is a unique sense of place given to it by the prominent train station at the head of the street.

This UP Depot hotel idea takes an obvious 'weenie' and completely covers it up. There is no longer any sense of place, no intuitive navigation, and no natural reason for people to wander up the steps toward the hotel. This is sort of like when Disney covered up their original 'weenie' in their Hollywood Studios park (the Grumman theater replica) with an inferior one (a big floating hat and disembodied Mickey hand). Reviews of the park became so lousy that they eventually had to take the embarrassing step of removing the big hat, which had been the park's icon up to that point (a BIG deal for Disney fans).

Pictures:


Taking down the big hat:


So to the Gateway Owners: please learn from the company that perfected the 'weenie' design philosophy and do not cover up your best weenie. Any mall - or whatever you want to call yours - is basically just a theme park without rides or admission prices. If you don't follow the basic design philosophies of good theme parks, your visitors will know that something is off and be less inclined to visit again or spend their money.

Building the hotel in two wings may cost more now, but it will earn you so much more money in the long run. We want the Gateway to succeed - this is why we give our feedback.

Ummmmmmm....this

[taboubak]

I was thinking today about how SLC has really lost alot of potential development land due to the inland port deal. I was thinking of where we could possibly expand geographically, and I had an idea about expanding out beyond the airport along the shores of the Salt Lake. Now I know the lake stinks sometimes, but it would be nice to actually have the Salt Lake be a part of Salt Lake City. Water levels are so low now that Antelope Island is not even close to being an actual island. So I figured it would be amazing if they could build a shallow freshwater reservoir in the land between Antelope Island and the airport. This could make some very nice waterfront property while geographically isolating Antelope Island further. Since the Salt Lake is so shallow two causeways could be built to separate the saline portions from the freshwater section. I am not sure if there would be enough of a water source in that area to construct and fill a reservoir, but I just thought it would be awesome if SLC actually had some kind of water front along the Salt Lake, and if the water was fresh then the smell wouldn't be a problem. As far as land goes, it is really all that is left anywhere near Salt Lake City limits, and some development out there could create alot of properties with easy access to downtown and the airport. I know it is a bit of a far-fetched idea but hey, if Utah lake could plan a development to build Dubai style islands in the middle of it, why couldn't the Salt Lake be built up to become more appealing. It would definitely add a big attraction to Salt Lake City.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by taboubak

I was thinking today about how SLC has really lost alot of potential development land due to the inland port deal. I was thinking of where we could possibly expand geographically, and I had an idea about expanding out beyond the airport along the shores of the Salt Lake. Now I know the lake stinks sometimes, but it would be nice to actually have the Salt Lake be a part of Salt Lake City. Water levels are so low now that Antelope Island is not even close to being an actual island. So I figured it would be amazing if they could build a shallow freshwater reservoir in the land between Antelope Island and the airport. This could make some very nice waterfront property while geographically isolating Antelope Island further. Since the Salt Lake is so shallow two causeways could be built to separate the saline portions from the freshwater section. I am not sure if there would be enough of a water source in that area to construct and fill a reservoir, but I just thought it would be awesome if SLC actually had some kind of water front along the Salt Lake, and if the water was fresh then the smell wouldn't be a problem. As far as land goes, it is really all that is left anywhere near Salt Lake City limits, and some development out there could create alot of properties with easy access to downtown and the airport. I know it is a bit of a far-fetched idea but hey, if Utah lake could plan a development to build Dubai style islands in the middle of it, why couldn't the Salt Lake be built up to become more appealing. It would definitely add a big attraction to Salt Lake City.

I'm with ya, kinda. I'm thinking of something similar but on Glendale Golf course. Then a bunch of Glendale infill (much lower population density than the rest of the city.)

[llamaorama]

do not cover up your best weenie.

Sure, if you want herpes

The article would be far more persuasive if they refrained from using the word “weenie”. Like, forever. “Terminating vistas” is what I’ve seen used for the concept. Read a book ages ago on new urbanism and that’s what they called it.

But hey, if the weenie is a seminal concept in design who am I to judge.

[Utaaah!]

Originally Posted by taboubak

I was thinking today about how SLC has really lost alot of potential development land due to the inland port deal. I was thinking of where we could possibly expand geographically, and I had an idea about expanding out beyond the airport along the shores of the Salt Lake. Now I know the lake stinks sometimes, but it would be nice to actually have the Salt Lake be a part of Salt Lake City. Water levels are so low now that Antelope Island is not even close to being an actual island. So I figured it would be amazing if they could build a shallow freshwater reservoir in the land between Antelope Island and the airport. This could make some very nice waterfront property while geographically isolating Antelope Island further. Since the Salt Lake is so shallow two causeways could be built to separate the saline portions from the freshwater section. I am not sure if there would be enough of a water source in that area to construct and fill a reservoir, but I just thought it would be awesome if SLC actually had some kind of water front along the Salt Lake, and if the water was fresh then the smell wouldn't be a problem. As far as land goes, it is really all that is left anywhere near Salt Lake City limits, and some development out there could create alot of properties with easy access to downtown and the airport. I know it is a bit of a far-fetched idea but hey, if Utah lake could plan a development to build Dubai style islands in the middle of it, why couldn't the Salt Lake be built up to become more appealing. It would definitely add a big attraction to Salt Lake City.

I flew in and out of Salt Lake earlier this week and had a great view of the not-so-Great Salt Lake. I lived in Davis County for many years and loved the views of Farmington Bay, which is now just a puddle. I often wondered why a Willard Bay-style reservoir couldn't be built in Farmington Bay to store water and become a scenic and recreational amenity. I suppose that altering the environment in this way could harm the migrant bird populations, but if done correctly, a freshwater lake surrounded by marshlands would certainly be better than a dry lake bed. Maybe the legislature could study this idea as part of -- or instead of -- the Bear River pipeline.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

Sure, if you want herpes

The article would be far more persuasive if they refrained from using the word “weenie”. Like, forever. “Terminating vistas” is what I’ve seen used for the concept. Read a book ages ago on new urbanism and that’s what they called it.

But hey, if the weenie is a seminal concept in design who am I to judge.

Looking at this on Google Streets (I've never been to the Gateway) it looks like the concept of Union Pacific Depot serving as a terminating vista/weenie is totally ruined from inside the Gateway given with how the Olympic Plaza and the Gateway is laid out- the station is totally blocked from view along the long axis. Rather it seems that the station as a weenie is done via the 400W side of the station.

The plaza itself looks like the problem- is there any way that this can be corrected or is it considered historic?

[taboubak]

Originally Posted by Utaaah!

I flew in and out of Salt Lake earlier this week and had a great view of the not-so-Great Salt Lake. I lived in Davis County for many years and loved the views of Farmington Bay, which is now just a puddle. I often wondered why a Willard Bay-style reservoir couldn't be built in Farmington Bay to store water and become a scenic and recreational amenity. I suppose that altering the environment in this way could harm the migrant bird populations, but if done correctly, a freshwater lake surrounded by marshlands would certainly be better than a dry lake bed. Maybe the legislature could study this idea as part of -- or instead of -- the Bear River pipeline.

Yeah, it would be nice to have something like Willard Bay here on the south end of the lake to add some recreational opportunities. The Salt Lake is drying up fast and I feel like that could provide both water storage and environmental preservation to the area.

[Orlando]

I think the original 12 to 14-story hotel location was over on this side.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I think the original 12 to 14-story hotel location was over on this side.

That is a much better location for the hotel, even keeping it at 8 stories it would look better there than it does right behind the Depot.

The shape would fit with with the plaza area as well.

[Utah_Dave]

Originally Posted by Makid

That is a much better location for the hotel, even keeping it at 8 stories it would look better there than it does right behind the Depot.

The shape would fit with with the plaza area as well.

I completely agree with this placement and I’m kinda surprised this wasn’t the plan to start with. Trying to create a courtyard between the hotel and depot won’t work well overall and will isolate segments of the gateway. I would prefer the hotel location like you showed Orlando with an addition or indoor/outdoor space that expands the depot and opens into the plaza increasing the opportunities of the Depot as a club/concert hall/event area. That seems like a more fitting use of the depot to me. I hope the Gateway’s owners think a little more “big picture”. I’d be fine with the design too. I just really don’t like the placement

[Utah_Dave]

While we are on the topic of the GSL I have a somewhat crazy idea to increase the lake level of the Great Salt Lake. Not only is it important for bird mitigation. But it will be critical to keep the amount of dust down, moderate the temperatures in the general area, and add snow pack and drinking water through increased lake effect. As of now the lake effect has been diminished in recent years because the surface area of the lake is substantially smaller. During drought years the lake is losing almost 2ft in elevation for the last 5-6 years. Only the winter of 2017 did the lake rise when it came up about 4ft. As you can imagine it’s back on its downward trend. I propose a pipeline from Snake river starting around the Burley area of Idaho. They could pump the water up and over the low ridgeline near snowville and let it drain into the lake on the down slope. I also propose a few small hydroelectric facilities to take advantage of the water flowing down hill. The pumps could be regulated depending on the water flow of the Snake river since I hear water rights are contentious already on that river but all we would need is the spring runoff that is overflow anyway.

I almost forgot another very important industry that would benefit from more lake effect snow and that’s skiing.

Also, I believe they already pump water out of Bear Lake into the wetlands on the North end of Bear Lake. I always thought it was the other way around but someone corrected me saying that water is pumped up to a higher level on the north end of the Lake. I don’t think Bear Lake is a good option for additional water for the GSL. It’s levels have been very low a few years back and we don’t want to lose that gem.

Thoughts?

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

I completely agree with this placement and I’m kinda surprised this wasn’t the plan to start with. Trying to create a courtyard between the hotel and depot won’t work well overall and will isolate segments of the gateway. I would prefer the hotel location like you showed Orlando with an addition or indoor/outdoor space that expands the depot and opens into the plaza increasing the opportunities of the Depot as a club/concert hall/event area. That seems like a more fitting use of the depot to me. I hope the Gateway’s owners think a little more “big picture”. I’d be fine with the design too. I just really don’t like the placement

It makes you think that the current proposal is a cut and paste job.

Vestar really wanted to use the depot as part of the hotel. Instead of hiring an architect to figure that out they cut and paste a hotel that was originally planned for the other side of the plaza. I'm 95% sure that that's what we are looking at.

[Hatman]

Piping water into the Great Basin from other watersheds is not a new idea, in fact we already do it. Strawberry Reservoir exists so that water can be pumped through a tunnel from the Colorado River basin into the Great Basin. Most of this water is used for irrigation. In fact, most of the water use in the great basin is agricultural, not (as most people think) lawns. Lawns are not helping, but their not the main problem.

Bear Lake drains into the Bear River, which drains into the Great Salt Lake, so we already get all that water.

Getting water from the Snake River is an interesting thought. I would take it from the American Falls Reservoir and pump it up to Daniels, above Malad. From there water can flow into the Bear River and then into the Great Salt Lake. That distance measures 34 miles, which is an easy distance to build a pipeline.

The thing is, it's not the pipe that is expensive. It is the power required to pump the water, which is incredibly heavy. For a proposed pipeline from the Missouri River into the Colorado basin, the expected energy requirements were somewhere in the order of several medium-sized states worth of electricity consumption. Produced the conventional way, the greenhouse gasses produced by raising up so much water would offset any environmental good done by having the lake be full.

Now, in the not-so-far future when every rooftop has a solar panel and energy prices are essentially free, I can see this happening. But until then the best thing we can do is to conserve water.

[Hatman]

I love the idea of the depot being a hotel. The train hall was not meant to be an events center, it was meant to be a place to introduce people to Salt Lake City - to be a place of coming and going, and I think a hotel lobby would be the next best use of it. I would prefer the hotel to be built as planned vs not having the hotel. But I think building two towers - one over the Barns and Nobel store and the other over the restaurant to the south - is the better way to make the hotel happen. Putting the hotel on the far side of the gateway plaza defeats the point - though I would like to see a tower built there eventually, either as another hotel or as a residential place.