The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

What a waste of ressources. Montreal's #1 priority when it comes to station retrofits should be installing elevators and making them accessible.

It's purely a question of security and operations. Do you really think they're putting them in for laughs and giggles? Ditto for Bloor-Yonge situations where they were nearly forced to close the station for overcrowding.

The Orange line is currently at saturation on it's Eastern branch and the Blue line extension will add 10-15% more users on the branch. The new garage under construction will increase capacity by 25% but stations were not designed for such traffic.

[milomilo]

Was going to say that. Their passenger rail system is far more developed than ours, in that it actually exists in more than a handful of cities and is not garbage north american style running on freight train tracks.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Was going to say that. Their passenger rail system is far more developed than ours, in that it actually exists in more than a handful of cities and is not garbage north american style running on freight train tracks.

Its weird, their passenger / commuter rail systems are far better than ours, but our urban rapid transit systems are far better than theirs.

[milomilo]

Their commuter rail systems are basically metros though, and they have the advantage of having them in place for over a century so land use has had the chance to be built around it.

[Metro-One]

Will have to agree to disagree. They fill the gap to a point, but I would place Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver ahead of any city in Australia for urban rapid transit.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Will have to agree to disagree. They fill the gap to a point, but I would place Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver ahead of any city in Australia for urban rapid transit.

Agreed. Australian cities when I was there last were the most sprawly I've ever seen. They're only building subways right now, their highest level of urban transport until very recently were LRT streetcars.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I'm so proud of all the transportation projects going up in Canada, how many countries with our population have so many highly developed cities. Spain maybe, but not much else!

It depends on what criteria you're using for 'development'. If the criteria is global cosmopolitanism, than Canadian cities are pretty hard to beat. You can eat at Jollibee and go to see Jewish theatre or a multiday documentary film festival in Winnipeg, a city of 700k that's not even in the top 5 of Canadian cities by most metrics. These probably aren't things you get in cities of comparable size/stature like Bremen, Genoa, Nantes or Sendai.

However, if your criteria is things like architecture and urban planning, street vibrancy, and - for the purposes of this thread - rapid transit, then I dunno, man.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Agreed. Australian cities when I was there last were the most sprawly I've ever seen. They're only building subways right now, their highest level of urban transport until very recently were LRT streetcars.

Except their high quality suburban networks which you're deliberately ignoring.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

It depends on what criteria you're using for 'development'. If the criteria is global cosmopolitanism, than Canadian cities are pretty hard to beat. You can eat at Jollibee and go to see Jewish theatre or a multiday documentary film festival in Winnipeg, a city of 700k that's not even in the top 5 of Canadian cities by most metrics. These probably aren't things you get in cities of comparable size/stature like Bremen, Genoa, Nantes or Sendai.

However, if your criteria is things like architecture and urban planning, street vibrancy, and - for the purposes of this thread - rapid transit, then I dunno, man.

I hear what you're saying man, but those are in countries with twice our population. How many countries with our population have so many vibrant biggish cities.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Except their high quality suburban networks which you're deliberately ignoring.

This.

Their surface rail networks (in Sydney and Melbourne, especially) kick the crap out of transit in TO/Mtl/Van. I would consider Montreal as the only Canadian city to be doing anything serious about their predicament as they are building the REM.

It's a given in most Aus cities that you'll live near a railway station with fairly frequent service and a mix of local/express services wheras in Canadian cities that's the exception to the rule. In Sydney/Melbourne, You can get to anywhere in the city at any time. In Toronto we basically have a north/south axe and an east-west axe and that's about it. What, you don't want to go to Yorkville, Yonge, or somewhere along Bloor/Danforth? 'fraid you're out of luck - your trip will involve 3 connections and take ~1 hour. I love streetcars but they are not suitable for getting across the city, let alone downtown. I live between Leslieville and Greektown in TO, and it takes a *minimum* of 37 minutes to get to freakin Union (only 7 km away), including a bus and 2 subways despite our garbage GO train running right past my house, simply because we have no station, no electrification, nothing. A comparable trip in Sydney would be 10 minutes on one train, from just about any point in the city, all throughout the day. i.e. Sydenham Station to Central Station.

[s211]

Originally Posted by SaskOttaLoo

For anyone based in Edmonton, is this article an accurate description of the capacity issues there? The price tag of over $2B for that level of capacity and little possibility for expansion seems really questionable. After having so many issues with the metro line, it seems Edmonton really needs to get this one right.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4095116/edmonton-valley-line-lrt-capacity/

"Further scrutiny of the design specifications by Global News has revealed that once the first phase of the line is built in 2020, there may not be a chance for the city to increase passenger capacity or train frequency along the busy corridor. The line will eventually run to Lewis Farms in west Edmonton.

The train cars along the Valley Line extension will be 42 metres long, with the capacity to hold about 275 passengers. Due to the length of the cars compared to the length of a city block along the line, the Valley Line LRT trains will be limited to two cars per train, according to a city spokesperson. Adding an additional car to the train would block vehicle traffic.

The city is currently designing the Valley Line trains to run on a five-minute frequency, and any increase in train frequency could affect vehicle traffic, the spokesperson indicated.

To put this into perspective, this means the line will be able to transport a maximum of about 6,600 people over the course of an hour, based on a five-minute frequency.

By comparison, the current Capital Line is able to transport about 12,000 people – nearly twice as many people – per hour. This is because the 24-metre-long cars can accommodate about 200 people each, and the trains are able to carry up to five cars. Peak frequency on the Capital Line is also every five minutes.

Last week, a new city report revealed the cost of the Valley Line LRT jumped by about $440 million, from $1.8 billion to $2.24 billion. The increased price tag is due to design changes at a couple of key intersections, as well as a larger park-and-ride facility at Lewis Estates."

Good gravy. One less reason to ever move to Edmonton: the civic government never learns and all its f-ups end up swept under carpets. They should not be in the business of rapid transit, given their record the last few decades.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

This.

Their surface rail networks (in Sydney and Melbourne, especially) kick the crap out of transit in TO/Mtl/Van. I would consider Montreal as the only Canadian city to be doing anything serious about their predicament as they are building the REM.

It's a given in most Aus cities that you'll live near a railway station with fairly frequent service and a mix of local/express services wheras in Canadian cities that's the exception to the rule. In Sydney/Melbourne, You can get to anywhere in the city at any time. In Toronto we basically have a north/south axe and an east-west axe and that's about it. What, you don't want to go to Yorkville, Yonge, or somewhere along Bloor/Danforth? 'fraid you're out of luck - your trip will involve 3 connections and take ~1 hour. I love streetcars but they are not suitable for getting across the city, let alone downtown. I live between Leslieville and Greektown in TO, and it takes a *minimum* of 37 minutes to get to freakin Union (only 7 km away), including a bus and 2 subways despite our garbage GO train running right past my house, simply because we have no station, no electrification, nothing. A comparable trip in Sydney would be 10 minutes on one train, from just about any point in the city, all throughout the day. i.e. Sydenham Station to Central Station.

Why do you consider REM "serious" but not the GTA's RER?

[nephersir7]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

What a waste of ressources. Montreal's #1 priority when it comes to station retrofits should be installing elevators and making them accessible.

Montreal's #1 priority for stations is still installing elevators.

As of August 2018, elevator installation work is under way in 7 stations

• Honoré-Beaugrand
• Bonaventure
• Jean-Talon (Blue)
• Jean-Drapeau
• Vendôme
• Mont-Royal
• Berri-UQAM (Green)

and 14 other elevator installations are funded & scheduled to be completed by the end of 2022

• Viau
• Préfontaine
• McGill
• Angrignon
• Jolicoeur
• Place-des-Arts
• Radisson
• Édouard-Montpetit
• Villa-Maria
• Namur
• Place St-Henri
• Outremont
• D'Iberville
• Université de Montréal

[J.OT13]

Good to hear. I just hope the plans platform dividers won't effect the progress they're doing making stations accessible.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Calgary and Edmonton use standard rolling stock, iirc when Edmonton gets their stuff together they could do it as they are using CBTC.

Of course its not worth doing vs. extensions but its a nice item to spend on if the government wants something quick to infuse cash into

Calgary's newest LRVs have a different door layout than the old ones to improve passenger flow.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Why do you consider REM "serious" but not the GTA's RER?

Because the REM is already under construction and is supported by both contenders for the next provincial election.

Don't get me wrong, I truly want to see the RER happen, but it's barely progressing at this time, beyond a bit of extra track and a couple of station redevelopments. The number of stations in the city has been drastically reduced, the question of electrification has not been settled and we're technically still diverted into that idiotic hydrogen study. Meanwhile, our city government is a non-party free for all and the PCs haven't been forthcoming on transit plans, but given how anti-Toronto and generally vindictive they are, it doesn't bode well for a quality RER system.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

What a waste of ressources. Montreal's #1 priority when it comes to station retrofits should be installing elevators and making them accessible.

But yes, if they are going to have this, the barriers should be 2/3 if possible. If it's full height, the platforms will feel enclosed.

As for Edmonton, those capacity issues are pretty bad, and predictable. How's a 13 km surface line come to the pretty much the same price as Ottawa's 12.5 km fully grade separated line (with 2.5 km downtown tunnel, 3 new subway stations, elaborate surface stations)? Yes, it's 5 years later, but that doesn't account fr such an inflation. And what's with the Valley line's one short section with the nice elevated station, while everything else runs on the surface?

Edmontons line isn't unexpectedly priced IMO, with the Con. Line it was built largely in a row that already existed, and Edmonton's Line does have a decently long elevated section, a fairly large new bridge, and a tunnel.

In terms of capacity, the current lines can achieve far more than 12k because the 5-minute frequency is not that high and the rolling stock is far from capacity optimized.

As far as the Valley Line I don't think a max capacity around 6000 is that bad. I think it's going to take quite a while before the line hits full capacity and while it may be counter-intuitive I think a line being clearly full to the gills might be helpful in leading to better decisions in the future and further investments from what will very likely be a UCP government.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

This.

Their surface rail networks (in Sydney and Melbourne, especially) kick the crap out of transit in TO/Mtl/Van. I would consider Montreal as the only Canadian city to be doing anything serious about their predicament as they are building the REM.

It's a given in most Aus cities that you'll live near a railway station with fairly frequent service and a mix of local/express services wheras in Canadian cities that's the exception to the rule. In Sydney/Melbourne, You can get to anywhere in the city at any time. In Toronto we basically have a north/south axe and an east-west axe and that's about it. What, you don't want to go to Yorkville, Yonge, or somewhere along Bloor/Danforth? 'fraid you're out of luck - your trip will involve 3 connections and take ~1 hour. I love streetcars but they are not suitable for getting across the city, let alone downtown. I live between Leslieville and Greektown in TO, and it takes a *minimum* of 37 minutes to get to freakin Union (only 7 km away), including a bus and 2 subways despite our garbage GO train running right past my house, simply because we have no station, no electrification, nothing. A comparable trip in Sydney would be 10 minutes on one train, from just about any point in the city, all throughout the day. i.e. Sydenham Station to Central Station.

Seems like a bad situation but I certainly wouldn't argue the biggest issue in Toronto is coverage, it still amazes me how many streets have 24h service in Toronto and how amazingly high the bus frequencies are. Not to mention that at this point (and even more so with Eglinton) pretty much all the biggest attractions in the city are within about a 10 minute bus ride from some TTC station.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The Confederation Line is definitely the mass transit project of the decade in Canada IMO given the impact it will have on reshaping transit in Ottawa / adding another city to Canada's metro system list (from 3 to 4).

I'm not sure just listing the Metros is the most impactful, the C-Train, in particular, is a surprisingly efficient system that lets you access a significant number of Calgary's attractions and with the "BRT" lines the city will be opened up quite well. Some features of the C-Train like the street running on 7th Avenue actually lead to benefits over grade separated transit

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Good to hear. I just hope the plans platform dividers won't effect the progress they're doing making stations accessible.

It's budgeted in the Blue line extension, one of the reasons the cost is so high. (seems only preliminary work is included)