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  #461  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 1:41 PM
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Those pesky natives, busting our balls with their annoying reconciliation talk, should just cross back the Bering Strait westbound and leave us alone already.
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  #462  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 2:16 PM
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I think at some point, the rest of the country will say enough is enough...at least I hope so.
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  #463  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 2:18 PM
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I think at some point, the rest of the country will say enough is enough...at least I hope so.
Enough is enough about what?
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  #464  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 2:21 PM
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bowing to anything the Indigenous community wants.
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  #465  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 2:25 PM
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There has to be forgiveness at some point. You cannot and will not ever have reconciliation without forgiveness. I liken it to my own family history. My grandfather came to Canada because he had to flee the Ukraine. He was a victim of the holodomor and saw his parents Murdered. Had the holodomor never happened I wouldn’t exist. The thing that bothers me is Russia’s denial of its atrocities. Canada has owned up to theirs. Will Russia ever answer for the deaths of my ancestors. Probably not.
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  #466  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 2:32 PM
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Those pesky natives, busting our balls with their annoying reconciliation talk, should just cross back the Bering Strait westbound and leave us alone already.
More seriously, it's ironic that vid is someone who considers it to be a very bad thing that people barge into a place and take over without giving consideration to the locals and their feelings about these changes.

So why does he justify repeating a bad idea when it's been proven to cause so much bloodshed and conflict everywhere it's happened?

Humanity doesn't move forward by "payback".
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  #467  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 2:36 PM
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bowing to anything the Indigenous community wants.
I honestly don't think that's what the government is doing, even if I do have some concerns about their approach.
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  #468  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 2:41 PM
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There has to be forgiveness at some point. You cannot and will not ever have reconciliation without forgiveness. I liken it to my own family history. My grandfather came to Canada because he had to flee the Ukraine. He was a victim of the holodomor and saw his parents Murdered. Had the holodomor never happened I wouldn’t exist. The thing that bothers me is Russia’s denial of its atrocities. Canada has owned up to theirs. Will Russia ever answer for the deaths of my ancestors. Probably not.
I do not think there will ever be enough done to appease the indigenous community, and the constant cadging from every angle is becoming incredibly tiresome. Trudeau has loosened the purse strings to boot. The Harper government was correct IMO in being fiscally responsible. I work with FN communities BTW, and the benefits they receive no matter his/her income leaves me shaking my head.
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  #469  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 2:44 PM
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I think about this often. Some of my white friends talk about the need to accommodate immigrants more by, for example, having more public signage be multi-multi-lingual. As in, not just English or French but Mandarin, Punjabi, Tagalog, etc.

My response to this is how do you know that's what those immigrants want? For example, I know immigrants who ask their children to speak English with them so they can practice. Or that complain that there are too many people like them in the workplace so their English doesn't improve there. Would additional accommodation not run counter to those peoples' wants?

I know minorities stick up for themselves all the time, but I do find it funny when non-immigrants try to come up with solutions to problems that they decided were important themselves.
Aside from the baseline "not being discriminated against for who we are or what we are or how we are", there is no unanimity as to what immigrants want in terms of a welcome from Canada. There are as many views on this as there are immigrants.

A lot of what is on offer is just non-immigrant Canadians thinking that immigrants might like or need this or that.

Of course if something is offered people will take it. Similar to if you offer me a free beer I might take it even if I wasn't itching to drink a beer.

So sure, information ofnthe City of Edmonton's recycling program in Punjabi might get some uptake from the community if you put it out there. That doesn't necessarily mean the Sikh community in the city would have been unhappy without it.
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  #470  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 2:52 PM
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I do not think there will ever be enough done to appease the indigenous community, and the constant cadging from every angle is becoming incredibly tiresome. Trudeau has loosened the purse strings to boot. The Harper government was correct IMO in being fiscally responsible. I work with FN communities BTW, and the benefits they receive no matter his/her income leaves me shaking my head.
At this point I don't think the government's interventions are sufficiently aimed at the right things nor are they paying off enough tangible dividends in order to be on solid ground to start talking about "limits to what we can do" and that we've "already done enough".
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  #471  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 4:16 PM
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In case you're interested, you can see the plaque they put in the place where the Macdonald statue used to be in Victoria. Scroll down.

https://www.cheknews.ca/ontario-governme...a-macdonald-statue-from-victoria-478909/
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  #472  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 4:49 PM
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In case you're interested, you can see the plaque they put in the place where the Macdonald statue used to be in Victoria. Scroll down.
It is common now in BC for public events to begin with an acknowledgement that everyone is on unceded native territory.

The fact is that BC has been settled for over 150 years now and the people who moved here are not going to just pack up and go away. We are also told that we have to be welcoming to immigrants, and that things like the head tax were bad. I am not sure how you reconcile all of this. It is another case where identity politics yield a dead end. We can flagellate ourselves and argue over who is the biggest victim but that is not going to help anyone.

Another story that's been in the media lately in BC is the request to pardon some Chilcotin who were convicted of murder in the 1860's. I am not sure what the outcome was, but nobody disputes that the 5 convicted Chilcotin killed 15 road workers and engineers. The dispute is over whether it was a "war" or not, as if a war would somehow justify killing workers. To me it also seems like kind of a minor issue compared to, say, providing good housing, food, and water to the native people in Canada who are alive right now and don't have all of those necessities.
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  #473  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 5:19 PM
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It is common now in BC for public events to begin with an acknowledgement that everyone is on unceded native territory.

.
It's basically become the norm for any federal peeps speaking anywhere.

Some other levels of government and even other paragovernmental and even private organizations have followed suit as well.

If I may be provocative it's pretty much reached the point where it's become meaningless.

The head of the Royal Canadian Mint is not going to do much for the Algonquin people - except to acknowledge he is standing on their unceded territory.

Big friggin deal.
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  #474  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 5:32 PM
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We are also told that we have to be welcoming to immigrants
?!?
Continuing to welcome new non-native immigrants to unceded native territory is making the unceded territory problem ever worse with the passage of time...

The very first step in that kind of situation - a no brainer - should be to close off the disputed territory to anyone who isn't already there (i.e. part of the problem already). Then at least we can hope for natural attrition of the interloper population over time, and an eventual return of the land to its rightful owners.
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  #475  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 5:36 PM
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The head of the Royal Canadian Mint is not going to do much for the Algonquin people - except to acknowledge he is standing on their unceded territory.
This is right. It is a cheap token thing that people can say that sounds meaningful but isn't.

I am not sure what unceded territory even means. Different native groups have different treaty statuses. Often the treaties focused more on land use rights (fishing and hunting) than territorial ownership. This is probably true in BC too. Natives in 1890 were more concerned about being able to fish for salmon than they were with ownership of woods that would eventually become neighbourhoods of Victoria or Vancouver.

Here's a treaty from 1752 in Nova Scotia that is kind of interesting. You can see what people cared about back in those days (the transcript is at top but if you scroll down you can see a scan of the original document):

https://novascotia.ca/archives/mikmaq/archives.asp?ID=623&Transcript=1

I am not sure why we would want to strictly enforce the terms of these agreements today, or focus too much on whether or not they happened. Most British treaties happened during the era of gunboat diplomacy when they dictated terms. This 1752 NS treaty is nicer than usual because the British were in a precarious position at the time, with French colonies allied with native groups right next door.
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  #476  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 5:56 PM
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I am not sure what unceded territory even means.
The meaning is very clear literally though - it means that someone who isn't the current owner has a rightful claim to it.

In practice, I see what you mean, though. If we aren't ever going to do anything about it, why even bother mentioning it? The only reason to say it's unceded is to show a will to consider the ownership claim of the party that used to have it and never formally ceded it.

If that's off the table, then... let's shut up about it once and for all.
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  #477  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 5:59 PM
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I've often wondered if all of these statements made by Government of Canada officials including the PM and the GG might not carry some weight in future legal proceedings.

Any thoughts on that?
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  #478  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 6:01 PM
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In case you're interested, you can see the plaque they put in the place where the Macdonald statue used to be in Victoria. Scroll down.

https://www.cheknews.ca/ontario-governme...a-macdonald-statue-from-victoria-478909/
A column by a respected VI Political commentator.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columni...mayor-helps-and-other-council-pipsqueaks

VICTORIA — Long before Quebec produced a political party bent on separatism, British Columbia entertained serious thoughts of quitting Canada.

The drive culminated in a resolution passed by the legislature 140 years ago this month under the leadership of then Premier George Walkem, elected on a promise to “fight Canada.”

Framed as a direct plea to Queen Victoria, the motion called on Her Majesty to “order and direct that B.C. shall have the right to withdraw from the union” unless Ottawa got going on construction of a transcontinental railway.

The railway was promised in the terms of union under which B.C. agreed to join Canada in 1871. But through the middle years of the 1870s, the then federal Liberal government foot-dragged, believing the railway was not viable economically or financially.

As Liberal Edward Blake put it at one point: “If the Columbians should say — you must go on and finish this railway according to the terms or take the alternative of releasing us from confederation, I would take the alternative!”

Had Ottawa proceeded down the bluff-calling road, continental history might have unfolded much differently.

Some Americans already thought of linking California, acquired by war, to Alaska, acquired by purchase. Had Canada abandoned the promise to build the railway, B.C. might have drifted into the U.S. embrace or been annexed in the name of manifest destiny.

It didn’t happen of course. The railway did get built and B.C. became the West Coast anchor of a dominion straddling the continent from sea to sea.

The reason it didn’t happen was in large measure owed to the political will of one man, John A. Macdonald. Returned to power as prime minister not long after the B.C. legislature issued the aforementioned plea-cum-ultimatum, he made sure the railway got built.

Readers of a certain age will, like me, recall the fully audacious, history-making story as told by Pierre Berton in the National Dream and the Last Spike, then dramatized by the CBC in a landmark TV series.

Do they still teach history that way today? I had to wonder because of what happened in my hometown of Victoria last week when its council voted to summarily evict Macdonald’s statue from the post it has occupied at city hall for most of four decades.

Mayor Lisa Helps tried to frame the removal as a well-thought-out gesture of reconciliation to Indigenous people offended by Macdonald’s role in establishing residential schools and denying social justice to people he’d characterized as “savages.”

But any claim to careful deliberation and due process was undermined by the rush-job handling, with council voting on Thursday, and the statue ticketed for removal by Saturday.

The deed itself was done in the dead of night, with work crews showing up at 5 a.m. and the statue sawed from its base and gone by 7:30. Would politicians who were proud of their action have proceeded that way?

Reactions evidenced a community that was bitterly divided for and against, vindicating the concern voiced by chair Murray Sinclair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission: “The problem I have with the overall approach to tearing down statues and buildings is that it is counterproductive to reconciliation because it almost smacks of revenge or smacks of acts of anger.”
The statue was installed at city hall not just in recognition of Macdonald’s role in ensuring B.C. got its railway (and was thus not at risk of joining what some people are now calling Trumpland) but also because of his special connection to the provincial capital.

Macdonald served as MP for Victoria and even visited the place after the railway was completed, pausing north of the city 132 years ago this week to drive the last spike on the completed Esquimalt and Nanaimo railway. The spot is still marked by a cairn — reluctant though I am to mention it given the current determination to expunge all memorials to a past that does not 100 per cent live up to present day notions of moral superiority.

As bitterness gave way to sober second thought this week, there was some suggestion that the statue might find a home in the provincial museum as part of a display that told a fuller story about Macdonald.

Perhaps there would even be space to quote from the portrait of Macdonald the man, by the late Bruce Hutchison, longtime Victoria resident.

“As a boy of seven he had seen his brother beaten to death by a drunken servant. His first son died of a fall at the age of two. Then for years the young lawyer and politician had neglected his career to sit night after night by the bed of his wife and watch her die. His second marriage produced a daughter whose mind never grew out of infancy and whom he treated tenderly as a child when she was a woman of middle age. Toward the end of his days his wife discovered in his room a box filled with the toys of his dead son. The wounds had never healed. He hid them with drink, raillery and the work of building a nation.”

Wherever the statue ends up, what happened Saturday was a comment on today’s politics more than anything that happened in Macdonald’s time. The country is his monument, and will remain so long after Mayor Helps and the other pipsqueaks on Victoria council are forgotten.
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  #479  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 6:03 PM
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The meaning is very clear literally though - it means that someone who isn't the current owner has a rightful claim to it.
The notion of a rightful claim is inherently subjective and murky though. There were no agreed upon rules before modern times (and our current rules were arbitrarily imposed by our evil colonial overlords who implemented things like land title systems).

If somebody has a freakishly high % of Neanderthal DNA does that mean they have a rightful claim to land inhabited by the lower % Neanderthal DNA Europeans? If a country changes hands 5 times, who gets to stay there? Does it just depend on how far the records go back? How do we know that a native chief spoke for a given group of people or not or who agreed or disagreed? What about if an area was improved under different owners? Do the eventual rightful owners get the improvements too, or do they get some approximation of the original value?

The DNA question sounds far-fetched but it's actually pretty relevant. Some native bands are almost 100% people who lived there for thousands of years but those are mostly in distant areas where there is no real dispute over the territory. In the disputed areas the populations are generally mixed, and there are often windfalls that have nothing to do with the original native lifestyle (i.e. I should get $X per year revenue from a shopping mall because my grandfather was born in place Y).

I think the only sane interpretation of all of this is that we should try to come up with outcomes that broadly work well for the people alive today, rather than imposing expensive changes on people based on interpretations of history.
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  #480  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2018, 6:04 PM
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Now comes word that the Ontario government (under the leadership of Doug Ford ) is interested in acquiring the Macdonald statue from the City of Victoria.
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