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  #7701  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2018, 4:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
I come to the forum for discussion and debate about public transit in Ottawa. Though I may poke and prod, I absolutely understand that Uhuniau is a transit rider, and therefore has a vested interest in making the system better. As you say, my issue is with the negativity, both here and what I believe is his Twitter account at @OCFailspo. I have spoken to transit staff at many levels, from front line staff to planners and some management, and know some of them well. I don't know anyone at OC Transpo who doesn't share the goal of making transit better, and works every day to do so. As I have mentioned before, the negativity is the issue when you're trying to make something in government better: people who are constantly negative are immediately written off and ignored by the people making decisions. It's very easy to be cynical, and I can be that way too in many situations. That cynicism masks the underlying sentiment, and weakens the point one is trying to make.

The other side of having spoken to many people at OC is understanding the vast complexity and many conflicting demands the organization faces. Here, we analyze every move they make, from routing, to vehicles, communications, infrastructure, and operations, and it's easy to take issue with many things we see. What is not always obvious is that almost every one of those decisions was made for a reason with many conflicting demands. Usually, the decisions that get criticized are actually quite reasonable when you know why. Sometimes through, there are political pressures, budget pressures, and just general mistakes. Blindly criticizing every decision you don't agree with hurts your personal credibility, and doesn't make for good feedback to OC, or good discussion on this forum.

I don't agree with every decision OC Transpo makes, but I try to understand why things are the way they are before jumping into cynicism and negativity. It's an exciting time to be a transit rider and enthusiast in Ottawa, and though the changes won't be perfect for everyone, providing reasonable and constructive feedback (through the proper channels) will result in the best system for everyone.
I think Uhuniau makes some great points and provides a perspective the rest of us don't often have (he's very concerned about what he calls the "human side" of transit use, as opposed to the more typical concerns about travel time and efficiency, which is a good counterweight), but the negativity is a little much. One of his key criticisms has been that east-end bus routes don't continue into the CBD and when they do/are planned to do, they take awkward semi-circular/heavily-left-turning paths to get there. And when OC decided to extend Route 18 into the CBD along a straight line route, what he'd always wanted, all he did was bitch that they aren't doing it for other routes too.
     
     
  #7702  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2018, 6:32 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
That seems like an inconvenient solution to a non-existent problem.
Pretty much, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I think Uhuniau makes some great points and provides a perspective the rest of us don't often have (he's very concerned about what he calls the "human side" of transit use, as opposed to the more typical concerns about travel time and efficiency, which is a good counterweight), but the negativity is a little much. One of his key criticisms has been that east-end bus routes don't continue into the CBD and when they do/are planned to do, they take awkward semi-circular/heavily-left-turning paths to get there. And when OC decided to extend Route 18 into the CBD along a straight line route, what he'd always wanted, all he did was bitch that they aren't doing it for other routes too.
I agree. It's important to celebrate the successes while also criticizing the failures.
     
     
  #7703  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 1:28 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I think Uhuniau makes some great points and provides a perspective the rest of us don't often have (he's very concerned about what he calls the "human side" of transit use, as opposed to the more typical concerns about travel time and efficiency, which is a good counterweight), but the negativity is a little much. One of his key criticisms has been that east-end bus routes don't continue into the CBD and when they do/are planned to do, they take awkward semi-circular/heavily-left-turning paths to get there. And when OC decided to extend Route 18 into the CBD along a straight line route, what he'd always wanted, all he did was bitch that they aren't doing it for other routes too.
I take Catenary's point that running a transit agency is complicated. But there has been a fairly significant deterioration in transit service in certain parts of the city in recent years. A lot of inner suburbs used to have peak period routes to supplement local services. Those are gone. Frequency has dropped on many routes in recent years. Transit lanes are being reduced, lanes available to transit are being reduced. Stops have been removed - sometimes sensibly but sometimes ridiculously (stops on St Patrick and Beachwood are now up to 650 metres apart).
     
     
  #7704  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 1:56 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I take Catenary's point that running a transit agency is complicated. But there has been a fairly significant deterioration in transit service in certain parts of the city in recent years. A lot of inner suburbs used to have peak period routes to supplement local services. Those are gone. Frequency has dropped on many routes in recent years. Transit lanes are being reduced, lanes available to transit are being reduced. Stops have been removed - sometimes sensibly but sometimes ridiculously (stops on St Patrick and Beachwood are now up to 650 metres apart).
These are all very valid points. All of the issues you list seem to be at the political level though, not the transit planning and operations level. Political desire has been to serve the suburbs and choice transit riders, at the expense of captive urban riders.
     
     
  #7705  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
How much benefit is there for a person transferring from the train to a bus if they don’t need to ‘tap’ onto the bus? The PRESTO system has made boarding a bus fairly fast and tapping their card has become ‘normal’ for most riders.

[...]

Would OC Transpo have been wiser to forgo ‘fair-paid’ zones and simplified the stations? Is there enough benefit in having ‘fare-paid’ zones?
Good questions.

Fare-paid zones make sense for a transit system with old-fashioned paper transfers and strict entry-point fare-control policies (i.e. no honour system or on-board proof-of-payment policy) -- which, in combination, would normally require human agents (i.e. bus drivers and subway booth attendants) to confirm the validity of each individual transferring passenger's fare. The fare-paid zone eliminates a major bottleneck at the station entrance (for bus-to-subway transfers) as well as potential delays to departing bus service by eliminating fare controls for large volumes of transferring passengers.

As for Ottawa, OC Transpo's existing proof-of-payment system and rear-door-boarding policies arguably negate one of the major advantages of having LRT-to-bus (and bus-to-bus) transfers take place within a fare-paid zone (i.e. permitting rear-door boarding and eliminating the need for bus drivers to individually check each passenger’s fare). And the advent of automatic fare gates speeds up the fare-control process for transfers in the opposite direction, from bus to LRT.

So it's certainly questionable whether fare-paid zones are even worthwhile here.

But I think that introducing fare controls (gates and PRESTO taps) for in-station transfers would still have the potential to create bottlenecks at busy transfer stations like Tunney’s, particularly at peak times when there are very large numbers of transferring passengers. I guess the desire to have the those transfers take place as smoothly and quickly as possible has outweighed the other kinds of concerns you raise about fare-paid zones (decreased walk-up accessibility to stations, etc.)?
     
     
  #7706  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
These are all very valid points. All of the issues you list seem to be at the political level though, not the transit planning and operations level. Political desire has been to serve the suburbs and choice transit riders, at the expense of captive urban riders.
So how much is political and how much is the transit agency? If we blame the service cuts, the terrible urban service and suburban mentality on politicians, what does OC Transpo do?

I wonder what it would look like if Ottawa, or any other Canadian City, gave their transit agency full control over transit planning.
     
     
  #7707  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 1:45 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
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Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
IAs you say, my issue is with the negativity, both here and what I believe is his Twitter account at @OCFailspo.
And also @beechwoodbus.

It’s not just negativity, it’s outright abuse of others, particularly cyclists. It’s unfortunate, I agree with his position that urban transit should be improved. But I disagree that everyone else should be ignored in the process.

Constructive discussion requires give and take; in his case there is only take so there is really no point engaging.
     
     
  #7708  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 3:01 PM
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Good Day.

A piece from one of the architects at IBI about the 3 underground stations :

Ottawa Citizen, Jon Willing, 2018 Aug 05 :

Architects of LRT tunnel stations aim to 'celebrate' unique transit cavern

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...s-aim-to-celebrate-unique-transit-cavern

EnJoy!
     
     
  #7709  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 3:02 PM
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Quote:
Architects of LRT tunnel stations excited to show off their work

John Willing
Post Media August 5, 2018



Architects from the firm IBI were the lead designers of the three downtown LRT stations -- Lyon, Parliament and Rideau -- which are in the tunnel. One of the challenges for the architects was to make the stations less cavernous for passengers, even though the spaces are mined caverns.IBI / Postmedia

Charlie Hoang was so shocked by what he saw leaving the sound-and-light show in an underground LRT station last year that he immediately called his colleague as he made his way up to the street level.

It wasn’t the multimedia extravaganza in the Kontinuum Ottawa 2017 attraction that had the transit architect quickly dialling up Danielle Sernoskie.

It was the natural light cascading down the escalators.

“I remember calling back to Danielle when I got out of the entrance on the west side (at Queen and Lyon streets),” Hoang said. “It was around 4 p.m. and I took the escalators and elevators, and said, ‘Danielle, did you see the amount of light coming down at that entrance?’ I was shocked that we managed to get that all the way down to the concourse.”

Successfully steering natural light into a cavernous environment is a big win in subterranean architecture, which on the Confederation Line LRT is the responsibility of IBI Group. Hoang is the firm’s director of transit architecture and Sernoskie is the project architect for the Confederation Line’s tunnel stations.

If the city’s November opening day stays on schedule, the Toronto-based architects are three months away from seeing the first reviews of their work.

The city’s main LRT contractor is Rideau Transit Group, whose major partners include ACS Infrastructure Canada, Dragados, EllisDon and SNC-Lavalin. IBI had worked with SNC on designing transit stations in Toronto and SNC asked IBI to join Ottawa LRT bid.

Sernoskie travels to Ottawa about once a month to keep tabs on the project. IBI has an Ottawa office lending support.

There are three stations in Ottawa’s 2.5-kilometre LRT tunnel: Lyon, Parliament and Rideau. They’re part of the 12.5-km, 13-station LRT line.

At Lyon station, the architects tried to open the ground-floor entrance as much as possible to let light trickle down from the top of the escalator and to the underground corridors. Architects can use software, animations and renderings to simulate the outcome, but they aren’t 100 per cent sure how a design will work until construction.

“You won’t experience it until you actually are there or go through that escalator route,” Hoang said. “It was a really exciting time seeing that.”


With Lyon station, architects tried to use as much indirect light as possible to illuminate underground walkways. Source: IBI Group

Rideau station become a focus because of its high-profile location hooked into a major shopping mall and near the historic ByWard Market.

“Ottawa is the first station we’ve done with an entirely mined cavern,” Hoang said. “Typical construction is a square box with vertical walls and a flat roof. With Rideau station, for example, we have the first station in Canada that has a round, circle, elliptical structure which encapsulates the volume of the station.”

Sernoskie said they wanted great design for the other two stations, too, but with Rideau there was an opportunity to “celebrate” the elliptical shape of the station’s body.

“We were able to create a very large, central double-height space that we may not have been able to do with other kinds of structural work,” Sernoskie said.


At Rideau station, architects wanted to celebrate the elliptical structure of the platform area. Source: IBI Group.

Squeezing a subterranean transit station into a dense built-up environment is another challenge for designers. Buildings with deep parking garages are built close to the property lines, and architects, with the expert guidance from construction engineers, have to be extremely efficient with a tight space.

Hoang said a constant challenge is designing underground transit stations that don’t feel like they’re underground.

“That atmosphere in the station is like another plaza, a public area underground,” he said. “You won’t see a lot of services or obstructions in our stations. When you go down, you’ll see a pretty wide path to the concourse, and then you can see your stairs, escalators and elevators down to the platform. Our goal is to always try to open that up if possible.”

For Sernoskie, making underground stations an inviting environment doesn’t mean covering up evidence of the constructed shell.

“When I look at a lot of different architecture, especially where concrete is being used, I kind of like exposing the concrete, showing off to the public what is being used to form those stations, or any building, really.”

The architects went with a neutral palette to help bring more light into the spaces. Passengers can expect to see lots of white, cream and light grey tones, accented with stainless steel and glass.

“We want to create a lot of transparency to the space,” Sernoskie said. “Even our elevator shafts are fully glazed, as much as we could do with all the regulations in place. If you enter an elevator from the grade level, you are almost seeing the trip from the street level through down into the station.”

The city, early in the design process, requested the use of wood at the street-level entrances of the tunnel stations. When planning for the $2.1-billion LRT system was happening six years ago, the city was big on repurposing wood from ash trees destroyed by the emerald ash borer and making it a design feature through the transit line.

Since artists would be livening up the stations, the architects wanted to provide excellent canvasses for the eye-popping creations.

Sernoskie said Geoff McFetridge and Douglas Coupland are creating vibrant pieces at Lyon and Parliament stations, respectively, that will work well with what the architects provided as a neutral base, letting the artwork. At Rideau station, the architects integrated the work of Montreal artist Geneviève Cadieux and identified glass walls to act as her palette.
https://ottawasun.com/news/local-news/ar...al&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1533474949
     
     
  #7710  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
So how much is political and how much is the transit agency? If we blame the service cuts, the terrible urban service and suburban mentality on politicians, what does OC Transpo do?

I wonder what it would look like if Ottawa, or any other Canadian City, gave their transit agency full control over transit planning.
Transit decisions can't be made in a vacuum. They're driven by funding decisions, decisions pertaining to the road network, etc. The current political environment favours cyclists and parking.
     
     
  #7711  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 4:04 PM
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One could argue that transit agencies are in a better position to know where the next transit line should go. They run the service, they know the busiest routes, they know where the issues lie.

If the TTC made the decisions in Toronto, they wouldn't keep extending Line 1 further north or build new lines that dump thousands more people on said Line 1. The TTC would fix the biggest headache which is the capacity issues in old Toronto. They would build the DRL.

Instead, we have politicians making the decisions based on votes.

At a minimum, it would be nice if the transit agencies were allowed to make recommendations to the politicians, recommendations that would be made public in order to ensure everyone is aware of the issues and solutions. Politicians would then be able to follow through, or go a different direction.

if we look at many communist countries (not arguing for or against communism, just a comment), their transit systems are huge, properly serving the urban areas because decisions are based on needs, not votes.
     
     
  #7712  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
One could argue that transit agencies are in a better position to know where the next transit line should go. They run the service, they know the busiest routes, they know where the issues lie.

If the TTC made the decisions in Toronto, they wouldn't keep extending Line 1 further north or build new lines that dump thousands more people on said Line 1. The TTC would fix the biggest headache which is the capacity issues in old Toronto. They would build the DRL.

Instead, we have politicians making the decisions based on votes.

At a minimum, it would be nice if the transit agencies were allowed to make recommendations to the politicians, recommendations that would be made public in order to ensure everyone is aware of the issues and solutions. Politicians would then be able to follow through, or go a different direction.

if we look at many communist countries (not arguing for or against communism, just a comment), their transit systems are huge, properly serving the urban areas because decisions are based on needs, not votes.
I think if the bureaucrats were in charge in Ottawa we would have been stuck with the transitway in central Ottawa for another century. The voters dragged the politicians and bureaucrats kicking and screaming to build the Confederation line. In the Toronto the bureaucrats wanted to build streetcars all over the suburbs. The move towards more grade-separated transit was again driven by voters.
     
     
  #7713  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I think if the bureaucrats were in charge in Ottawa we would have been stuck with the transitway in central Ottawa for another century. The voters dragged the politicians and bureaucrats kicking and screaming to build the Confederation line. In the Toronto the bureaucrats wanted to build streetcars all over the suburbs. The move towards more grade-separated transit was again driven by voters.
We might have been stuck with the transitway but we would also have had the downtown tunnel 30 years ago
     
     
  #7714  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 9:29 PM
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We might have been stuck with the transitway but we would also have had the downtown tunnel 30 years ago
The problem with the bus tunnel was that they could not operate diesel while in the tunnel. So would have had to have purchased diesel / electric buses for any vehicle transiting through the tunnel. That in the case of OC Transpo would have been pretty much the entire fleet.

It would also have precluded the double-deckers that are currently the mainstay of suburban express routes that would necessarily have transited via the bus tunnel.

The light metro we’re about to have is the best case solution. As long as it receives the necessary funding to complete to Orleans, Barrhaven and Kanata.
     
     
  #7715  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 9:33 PM
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Transit decisions can't be made in a vacuum. They're driven by funding decisions, decisions pertaining to the road network, etc. The current political environment favours cyclists and parking.
I think a key part of OC's problem is that it has a penny wise and pound foolish way of thinking. When designing routes and network, it focuses on what reduces operating expenses the most, failing to consider that certain choices can reduce ridership, and also fails to consider that to some extent OC needs to be able and willing to put out new services as a loss leader in order to build ridership over time, instead of only responding to present ridership. In other words, OC needs to start acting like a modern business--focusing on investing in its own growth to maximize value in the long term; instead of a bureaucratic model of simply minimizing costs.

Kingston Transit's incredible ridership growth is an example of what can be achieved with this line of thinking. You see it to a lesser extent in other cities too; places like K-W and Brampton are seeing rapid growth in ridership while others like York Region and Ottawa are stagnant. The general theme? The latter are served by agencies obsessed with penny pinching above all else.
     
     
  #7716  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2018, 10:10 PM
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We might have been stuck with the transitway but we would also have had the downtown tunnel 30 years ago
That would have been an epic cluster****.
     
     
  #7717  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2018, 1:06 AM
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That would have been an epic cluster****.
Why would you say that? The problem is that we were considering a tunnel OR the original surface route. Why not both? This alone would have more than doubled capacity.
     
     
  #7718  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2018, 1:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I think a key part of OC's problem is that it has a penny wise and pound foolish way of thinking. When designing routes and network, it focuses on what reduces operating expenses the most, failing to consider that certain choices can reduce ridership, and also fails to consider that to some extent OC needs to be able and willing to put out new services as a loss leader in order to build ridership over time, instead of only responding to present ridership. In other words, OC needs to start acting like a modern business--focusing on investing in its own growth to maximize value in the long term; instead of a bureaucratic model of simply minimizing costs.

Kingston Transit's incredible ridership growth is an example of what can be achieved with this line of thinking. You see it to a lesser extent in other cities too; places like K-W and Brampton are seeing rapid growth in ridership while others like York Region and Ottawa are stagnant. The general theme? The latter are served by agencies obsessed with penny pinching above all else.
Ottawa used to be an transit innovator but has become extremely conservative, while spending more money than ever. The cities that you mentioned have replaced Ottawa in innovation and finding ways to grow ridership without blowing the bank in the process. Yes, they spend money but they spend it effectively.


You all know that I was a big supporter of the Chiarelli plan. Why? Because it planned to create a grid of new rapid transit routes to more parts of the city than the current plan. It would not have produced the shining baubles that we are now oohing and ahhing about but ridership would have grown because rapid transit would have been brought closer to much more Ottawans than the current project will ever be able to do. It would have never produced a system with enormous trains running every 2 or 3 minutes but a 10 minute rapid bus line near my door is much better than that 3 minute train that requires a 30 minute bus connection. I know everybody was saying that the Chiarelli plan was too inefficient but a system that grows ridership substantially will be more effective and will generate extra revenue while a stagnant system will always demand cost cutting.

The current plan demands extension at enormous cost. We all know this. Phase 1 was never going to be enough. This leaves nothing for the smaller transit projects that most Ottawans especially inside the Greenbelt would have benefitted more from. Those smaller projects would have been cheaper and when accumulated together, the benefit would have been bigger. As it stands, our current proposal generates the status quo for riders as far as time. Yes, something needed to happen downtown, but even a bus tunnel could have delivered more without needing to invest in a city wide rail network with the degree of urgency that we are now seeing. We could have spent that money on Carling or Baseline or other improvements.

The problem with current plan is that depends on almost everybody continuing to use connecting buses and that system has suffered from years of stagnation if not outright deterioration. It becomes the weak link. We have this expensive rail system but connected to an increasingly lousy bus system.


We all talk about efficiency but what do we gain when the money savings are not actually reinvested in improving service elsewhere in the system. Instead, that money is taken out of operations to pay interest or to pay for the next phase. You cannot grow transit when your goal is cost cutting.


I know this all talk of spilt milk, but 1overcosc has made a very good point.


My own experience again today points to failings of what we are doing. When we cannot even provide frequent service (15 minute frequency) on a Sunday afternoon on the Southeast Transitway, when we cannot even schedule Transitway bus routes properly so that their schedules are properly coordinated (both routes running at almost the exact same time), there is something wrong.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Aug 6, 2018 at 2:04 AM.
     
     
  #7719  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2018, 2:13 AM
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When I went through Hurdman today, why are we not going to provide some degree of weather protection for those connecting from rail to bus? I am talking about the walkway to the bus shelters at least to keep rain and snow off of us. It seems that we are spending a fortune for weather protection for the rail line but hardly nothing for bus riders.
     
     
  #7720  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2018, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
When I went through Hurdman today, why are we not going to provide some degree of weather protection for those connecting from rail to bus? I am talking about the walkway to the bus shelters at least to keep rain and snow off of us. It seems that we are spending a fortune for weather protection for the rail line but hardly nothing for bus riders.

I believe I and a few others covered this my last post on it was #7674
     
     
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