YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[nname]

Flair's winter domestic schedule out of YVR

Daily YVR-YYC-YWG
Daily YVR-YEG-YYZ

No more service to YLW
No more direct flight to YWG

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by nname

Flair's winter domestic schedule out of YVR

Daily YVR-YYC-YWG
Daily YVR-YEG-YYZ

No more service to YLW
No more direct flight to YWG

Yeah YLW cut from YVR and YYC.
YYJ, YHZ and YHM cut as destinations altogether.
Drastic reduction in YEG too.
As for YWG still direct just the two weekly non stops are gone for winter.

Domestic winter flying in Canada just too weak to warrant all those flights. Now to see what they have up their sleeves for sun flights this winter.

[Hot Rod]

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air...the-hub-AME&utm_content=the-hub-20180720

[Johnny Aussie]

AC replacing YVR-HKG with a 789 from 4 Nov - 9 March

Significant capacity decrease from 450 seats to 298.

Perhaps just a wee too big a plane for that time of year especially with CX increasing and now HX on the route.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air...18-vancouver-hong-kong-aircraft-changes/

[Gordon]

ccording to yVr.ca aC wil be back to a 773 for the summer 2019

once the East apron remote stands are available are e likely to see some of the red-eye Asian departures switch to daytime departures?

[Alexcaban]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

AC replacing YVR-HKG with a 789 from 4 Nov - 9 March

Significant capacity decrease from 450 seats to 298.

Perhaps just a wee too big a plane for that time of year especially with CX increasing and now HX on the route.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air...18-vancouver-hong-kong-aircraft-changes/

Well the frame needs to be going somewhere else?
Any ideas, YVR-SYD?

[whatnext]

Instead of spending money on a forest of speed bumps, YVR should be spending some money on irrigation for their landscaping. Half the trees and shrubs on Grant McConachie look to be in distress from this dry spell.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Gordon

ccording to yVr.ca aC wil be back to a 773 for the summer 2019

once the East apron remote stands are available are e likely to see some of the red-eye Asian departures switch to daytime departures?

Definitely a route that can support the big bird in the summer but the seasonality is real.

A lot of those red eyes are timed that way for onward connections in MNL, TPE, PEK, PVG, HKG etc. not because of gate space.

Originally Posted by Alexcaban

Well the frame needs to be going somewhere else?
Any ideas, YVR-SYD?

Yes it does. I think with 3 Australian routes now the 77L is a perfect fit for SYD, 789 for MEL and 788 to BNE. There aren’t very many routes that can support the 77W out of YVR in the winter. Unless they move it to YYZ. Can’t really see any routes out of anywhere else in Canada that can support the 450 seater in winter. YUL has CDG already and YVR will have LHR and PEK. Maybe more trans cons?

[nname]

Seems like in this week's schedule update, AC had loaded the summer schedule for YVR-YZF. The route is now year-round with 1x daily in the summer and 2x daily in winter.

This is the only route change AC made in the past 2 weeks for S19:

+++AC 8834	YZF - YVR

[CareerShow]

PEK reverts back to a 789 in the winter...so it appears we are down to one 77w in the winter time...I would be curious to see the load factor stats on all these long haul routes, they are hopefully good as the yields, based on the prices, must be low

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by CareerShow

PEK reverts back to a 789 in the winter...so it appears we are down to one 77w in the winter time...I would be curious to see the load factor stats on all these long haul routes, they are hopefully good as the yields, based on the prices, must be low

Not sure about that. YVR-PEK still showing daily 77W year-round.

[zahav]

I chose a random week in Nov and PEK is a 789 (at least on OAG).

This is obviously a reaction to Hong Kong Airlines and Cathay's increase. YVR-HKG is a big market but still has its limits. If reducing to a 789 means we get more from the other HK carriers then its worth it. Reminds me of when AC changed MEX to a mainline 319. Was a daily seat reduction from 136 down to 120. But we kept a daily MEX and also got tons more carriers on the route, so was a good compromise. Many cities get routes cut or reduced fairly often (YYC for example is vulnerable to a lot of these cuts if demand slacks at all)

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by zahav

I chose a random week in Nov and PEK is a 789 (at least on OAG).

This is obviously a reaction to Hong Kong Airlines and Cathay's increase. YVR-HKG is a big market but still has its limits. If reducing to a 789 means we get more from the other HK carriers then its worth it. Reminds me of when AC changed MEX to a mainline 319. Was a daily seat reduction from 136 down to 120. But we kept a daily MEX and also got tons more carriers on the route, so was a good compromise. Many cities get routes cut or reduced fairly often (YYC for example is vulnerable to a lot of these cuts if demand slacks at all)

You are right YVR-PEK is a 789 from 27 Oct - 30 Nov only.

Wouldn’t get tooo excited about that. November is probably the weakest month for air travel.

[zahav]

True, and it isn't concerning to me, and shouldn't be to anyone. I actually am glad AC is sacrificing by downgrading to a 789 if it's due to competition. The alternative would be them killing the competition and we lose HK Airlines and CX scales down, which I wouldn't want.

I feel like AC should add YQB or YHZ next year. I don't want to sound whiny, but AC added YUL-YYJ, YYZ-YKA, YYZ-YCD etc but yet we don't have a flight to YQB or YHZ on AC, which has a far bigger population than any of the cities AC added east-west service to. And I know there are way more factors at play other than population etc etc but it's just kind of annoying that AC launched these western non stops (essentially undermining the YVR connecting hub, even operating from YXX!) yet forces us to always connect in YYZ or YUL for eastern routes. Would be very curious to see the demand between YYZ and YKA and if its more than YVR-YHZ, somehow I doubt it. I know its just business, but somehow it still feels odd that AC is OK with limiting domestic connections in YVR and instead going non stop to majorly secondary markets here, but we don't have YHM, YQB, YHZ, or anything

[nname]

Originally Posted by zahav

True, and it isn't concerning to me, and shouldn't be to anyone. I actually am glad AC is sacrificing by downgrading to a 789 if it's due to competition. The alternative would be them killing the competition and we lose HK Airlines and CX scales down, which I wouldn't want.

I feel like AC should add YQB or YHZ next year. I don't want to sound whiny, but AC added YUL-YYJ, YYZ-YKA, YYZ-YCD etc but yet we don't have a flight to YQB or YHZ on AC, which has a far bigger population than any of the cities AC added east-west service to. And I know there are way more factors at play other than population etc etc but it's just kind of annoying that AC launched these western non stops (essentially undermining the YVR connecting hub, even operating from YXX!) yet forces us to always connect in YYZ or YUL for eastern routes. Would be very curious to see the demand between YYZ and YKA and if its more than YVR-YHZ, somehow I doubt it. I know its just business, but somehow it still feels odd that AC is OK with limiting domestic connections in YVR and instead going non stop to majorly secondary markets here, but we don't have YHM, YQB, YHZ, or anything

Well, I guess it's the same as WS launching routes from YYC to secondary city in BC, but there's not a route from YVR to any secondary cities in AB.

Would Terrace to Calgary really that much higher demand than.. say Vancouver to Lethbridge?

YVR currently have the same amount of destination in mainland China as Canadian cities outside of BC, whether you count direct (13) or year-round non-stop (9). For a comparison, Calgary have 10 year-round destinations in BC alone.

[zahav]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, I guess it's the same as WS launching routes from YYC to secondary city in BC, but there's not a route from YVR to any secondary cities in AB.

Would Terrace to Calgary really that much higher demand than.. say Vancouver to Lethbridge?

YVR currently have the same amount of destination in mainland China as Canadian cities outside of BC, whether you count direct (13) or year-round non-stop (9). For a comparison, Calgary have 10 year-round destinations in BC alone.

Yes exactly, you are right on my point. I am not complaining since I like the fact so many secondary or lower BC cities and towns have great connections, it speaks a lot about the vitality and appeal of these small destinations. The fact that Kamloops, Kelowna, Abbotsford, Vancouver, Nanaimo, and Victoria all have flights to Toronto is pretty good for our province. But it doesn't help YVR, it undermines it. The fact that all of BC's secondary cities can connect direct to the rest of the AC network without YVR is not a bonus for the airport. AC will do anything humanly possible to feed its YYZ hub but doesn't seem to care whatsoever about feeding its YVR hub in the same way. So far it hasn't seemed to hurt YVR. In fact our domestic traffic growth has been quite astonishing this year especially, without any obvious reasons. 7.2% YTD growth, compared to 3.8% for YUL and 5.6% for YYC. We were actually 2nd to YYC for total domestic traffic for many years, up until very recently. Our overall airport traffic has always been higher due to transborder+international included, but domestic only they were higher. But the last 2 years we've pulled ahead and now YTD we are noticably higher. Makes you wonder how much higher those numbers would be if all of those BC cities had to connect in YVR

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by zahav

ue, and it isn't concerning to me, and shouldn't be to anyone. I actually am glad AC is sacrificing by downgrading to a 789 if it's due to competition. The alternative would be them killing the competition and we lose HK Airlines and CX scales down, which I wouldn't want.

I feel like AC should add YQB or YHZ next year. I don't want to sound whiny, but AC added YUL-YYJ, YYZ-YKA, YYZ-YCD etc but yet we don't have a flight to YQB or YHZ on AC,

With the arrival of more Max 8's, a seasonal AC YVR-YHZ should happen. Not sure about YQB. Let's see if WestJet's new YYC-YQB sticks around.

I find it weird that statscan has up to date O&D data between Canadian and US cities, but none for domestic city pairs.

[Gordon]

How many remote stands are connected to Gate D59 and Gate E85?

[Lancaster]

Originally Posted by zahav

Yes exactly, you are right on my point. I am not complaining since I like the fact so many secondary or lower BC cities and towns have great connections, it speaks a lot about the vitality and appeal of these small destinations. The fact that Kamloops, Kelowna, Abbotsford, Vancouver, Nanaimo, and Victoria all have flights to Toronto is pretty good for our province. But it doesn't help YVR, it undermines it. The fact that all of BC's secondary cities can connect direct to the rest of the AC network without YVR is not a bonus for the airport. AC will do anything humanly possible to feed its YYZ hub but doesn't seem to care whatsoever about feeding its YVR hub in the same way. So far it hasn't seemed to hurt YVR. In fact our domestic traffic growth has been quite astonishing this year especially, without any obvious reasons. 7.2% YTD growth, compared to 3.8% for YUL and 5.6% for YYC. We were actually 2nd to YYC for total domestic traffic for many years, up until very recently. Our overall airport traffic has always been higher due to transborder+international included, but domestic only they were higher. But the last 2 years we've pulled ahead and now YTD we are noticably higher. Makes you wonder how much higher those numbers would be if all of those BC cities had to connect in YVR

Agreed that it can feel like AC is focused solely on developing YUL and YYZ before they even remember YVR exists (unless it's serving a destination that can't be effectively reached by the East coast hubs). But make no mistake, YVR is basically the end of the line in Canada. It would be some serious backtracking for passengers in the interior of BC to fly West before going to YYZ or YUL. It would basically be handing all eastbound travel to WS to connect out of YYC. This at least keeps them competitive as they throttle down operations at YYC.

Undercutting YVR this year by offering direct service between YYZ-YYJ/YCD and YUL-YYJ is baffling. That would be like YVR having direct YQB, YXU, YGK, YYG, YHZ, etc. Though I'm most intrigued by the strategy of adding Asia flights out of YUL. It undercuts YVR, and especially the YYZ hub. I don't understand the logic.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Lancaster

Agreed that it can feel like AC is focused solely on developing YUL and YYZ before they even remember YVR exists (unless it's serving a destination that can't be effectively reached by the East coast hubs). But make no mistake, YVR is basically the end of the line in Canada. It would be some serious backtracking for passengers in the interior of BC to fly West before going to YYZ or YUL. It would basically be handing all eastbound travel to WS to connect out of YYC. This at least keeps them competitive as they throttle down operations at YYC.

Undercutting YVR this year by offering direct service between YYZ-YYJ/YCD and YUL-YYJ is baffling. That would be like YVR having direct YQB, YXU, YGK, YYG, YHZ, etc. Though I'm most intrigued by the strategy of adding Asia flights out of YUL. It undercuts YVR, and especially the YYZ hub. I don't understand the logic.

Logic? It’s called market size and simple geography. The market between YYZ (and points east) and YCD/YYJ/YKA is clearly larger than YVR-YKF/YQB etc. Any flights from YVR to secondary cities in Central and Eastern Canada will almost entirely rely on O&D with very minimal transfer traffic on either end.
Geography hasn’t changed for decades... same discussions held in the 1980s. Nothing has changed... YVR is and always will be the end of the line. YVR does have a great location for Asian traffic but those Eastern cities you mention are easily reached through YYZ. Again, just basic geography at play.
YUL-Asia means that market is large enough now to sustain nonstop flights to the three largest Asian markets being NRT, PEK and PVG. There are probably very few Asian markets left that would be a viable route from YUL. Maybe HKG?

Are you forgetting Air Canada flies nonstop from YVR to LHR, DUB, FRA, CDG and ZRH? Aren’t these flights “under cutting” YYZ and YUL?

Does anybody honestly think that AC has “neglected” YVR in the last three years? It’s been nothing but one route addition after another.

As for secondary cities in BC being connected through YYC - there’s that evil geography wheeling its hand again. The traffic flows are mainly within Canada. All these cities are obviously connected to YVR as well for the strong O&D plus some decent connectivity. But what traffic flows would YVR be able to garner with links to YQL, YXH, YMM and YQU. Basically O&D and maybe some Asian and US traffic. Otherwise those pax would be back tracking. Interestingly enough YYC will only be connected to YQL, YXH, YMM and YQU after AC pulls out of YQF so that’s only 4 secondary cities in Alberta connected with air service to YYC other than some small towns with charter like services.

So despite all the disadvantages YVR has as a domestic hub.... not bad
Global reach huh?