PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Bethesda would be generous. Also, I doubt Bethesda would let this facility be built there.

More like Gaithersburg, Olney, or Poolesville.

What a waste of effort.

NOVA and Montco MD don't even meet the terms of the RFP. Ridiculous.

If all this is true, the RFP is disingenuous as I originally called out and said that the decision was made before the proposal was sent. Good luck with those locations. It's incredibly expensive to live in the DC Metro Area and traffic is a nightmare. If Amazon were to build there, the requirement should be directly on a metro stop. Bye Bye!

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

In an absolute shocker:
Buh bye:
Newark
Chicago

What unique and transformative finalists said no one ever:
NOVA
MONTCO
AUSTIN

If this is true, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that this whole exercise has been fraudulent and that cities who laid out untold tax dollars to put together these massive polished proposals, had legislators spend time putting together packages of corporate aid when they could have been doing more productive things, etc, would have cause to sue Amazon. They seemingly have intentionally defrauded cties of resources when they had no intention to follow their own guidelines, just to legitimize a decision that had already been made. If I were an official of at least a finalist city I would seriously look into suing them for fraud.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

If this is true, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that this whole exercise has been fraudulent and that cities who laid out untold tax dollars to put together these massive polished proposals, had legislators spend time putting together packages of corporate aid when they could have been doing more productive things, etc, would have cause to sue Amazon. They seemingly have intentionally defrauded cties of resources when they had no intention to follow their own guidelines, just to legitimize a decision that had already been made. If I were an official of at least a finalist city I would seriously look into suing them for fraud.

But most, including Philly, intend to make good use of the marketing materials generated for HQ2 for future pursuits.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

But most, including Philly, intend to make good use of the marketing materials generated for HQ2 for future pursuits.

Honestly, I can't speak for anyone else, but I feel like if nothing else it's been worth it for us in terms of learning how to better market ourselves.

[acenturi]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

..............If I were an official of at least a finalist city I would seriously look into suing them for fraud.

Yep, I said the same thing in a very earlier post. Before heading to the courts though, Philly should send them a Bill covering the entire prep process, including as much relevant minutiae as possible. I'd speculate a demand in the $10M range should get their attention. Would Amazon settle? Probably, if there was proof the location was always the DC metro and the exercise was to use other cities to maximize the selectees investment. OTOH, I'd be shocked if Amazon's legal team hadn't considered this before issuing the RFP and taken offsetting measures in advance. If I were Amazon, to play it safe, I'd probably not select a winner at this time and wait for the (likely very close) next economic downturn as rationale to cancel HQ2. Then, if still a viable option, in slow stages establish the DC area HQ2 in 2 or 3 years.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by acenturi

Yep, I said the same thing in a very earlier post. Before heading to the courts though, Philly should send them a Bill covering the entire prep process, including as much relevant minutiae as possible. I'd speculate a demand in the $10M range should get their attention. Would Amazon settle? Probably, if there was proof the location was always the DC metro and the exercise was to use other cities to maximize the selectees investment. OTOH, I'd be shocked if Amazon's legal team hadn't considered this before issuing the RFP and taken offsetting measures in advance. If I were Amazon, to play it safe, I'd probably not select a winner at this time and wait for the (likely very close) next economic downturn as rationale to cancel HQ2. Then, if still a viable option, in slow stages establish the DC area HQ2 in 2 or 3 years.

Regardless of how they explain it, if they cancel their HQ2 plans it would ignite rage in all of the competing cities far more than a city getting it that doesn't seem to match the details they laid out for what they wanted.

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

But most, including Philly, intend to make good use of the marketing materials generated for HQ2 for future pursuits.

Doesn’t mean that Amazon didn’t commit fraud.

[Nova08]

It will certainly help that Philly went through this exercise. But it seems like all we can attract are a trickle of 10 - 50 people companies. We are not attracting the 500+ company that can be an anchor tenant.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Nova08

It will certainly help that Philly went through this exercise. But it seems like all we can attract are a trickle of 10 - 50 people companies. We are not attracting the 500+ company that can be an anchor tenant.

What is Chicago doing differently than we are that's allowing them to pull in massive suburban companies to the Loop? Every company that moves admits, "We can attract younger and better talent to Chicago over Oak Park so this move is about innovation, growth, and survival."

-Like, why aren't huge Philly suburban companies making the same calculus?

[McBane]

The city and state budgeted for huge giveaways to Amazon. Why not use that money to lure other companies here? If the city is just going to sit and wait for prospective companies to seek out Philadelphia, then they learned nothing. They have to go out there and pitch the city, slash taxes (or at least stop raising them), cut red tape, and stop trying to turn Philadelphia into a progressive utopia.

[reparcsyks]

Originally Posted by McBane

The city and state budgeted for huge giveaways to Amazon. Why not use that money to lure other companies here? If the city is just going to sit and wait for prospective companies to seek out Philadelphia, then they learned nothing. They have to go out there and pitch the city, slash taxes (or at least stop raising them), cut red tape, and stop trying to turn Philadelphia into a progressive utopia.

I fail to see what making Philadelphia progressive has to do with attracting new businesses. In fact, I think the more progressive Philly becomes, the more it will attract top-tier businesses. Look at the cities that people actually want to live in: SF, Seattle, Portland --- they are, for America, very progressive.

Many people still see Philly as a working-class backwater where bums warm their hands over burning oil drums at night. I love when people visit me and are blown away by what Philly offers. In a way it's easy to impress every new Philly visitor because we have such a bad rep.


So yeah, we need to make Philly a business-friendly town, but we also need to drag this town into the 21st century, because many parts of it are still stuck in the 1970s, in what I call the Rizzo/Street Mindset.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

I fail to see what making Philadelphia progressive has to do with attracting new businesses. In fact, I think the more progressive Philly becomes, the more it will attract top-tier businesses. Look at the cities that people actually want to live in: SF, Seattle, Portland --- they are, for America, very progressive.

Many people still see Philly as a working-class backwater where bums warm their hands over burning oil drums at night. I love when people visit me and are blown away by what Philly offers. In a way it's easy to impress every new Philly visitor because we have such a bad rep.


So yeah, we need to make Philly a business-friendly town, but we also need to drag this town into the 21st century, because many parts of it are still stuck in the 1970s, in what I call the Rizzo/Street Mindset.

Here Here. You can add pretty much any booming city to that list of progressive places (NYC, LA, Austin, etc.) with the exception of some sprawling sun belters like Houston and Dallas.

[McBane]

You can't compare Philadelphia to SF, Seattle, or NYC. Those cities have hugely successful and booming economies and far lower rates of poverty. It's very different to enact progressive taxes and regulations that could stifle business when you're already a successful booming city. Companies in those cities are willing to overcome high taxes and onerous/progressive regulations.

Philadelphia is not there yet and until we get to that point, it's my opinion that our leaders should focus more on attracting companies and growing high wage jobs as opposed to reinforcing the image that we're a difficult and expensive place to do business.

Surely, you don't think that the answer to Detroit's problems is to increase the minimum wage, raise taxes, and pass regulations to help out "the little guy"?

I'm not saying we're Detroit, but we're not Seattle either.

[reparcsyks]

Originally Posted by McBane

You can't compare Philadelphia to SF, Seattle, or NYC. Those cities have hugely successful and booming economies and far lower rates of poverty. It's very different to enact progressive taxes and regulations that could stifle business when you're already a successful booming city. Companies in those cities are willing to overcome high taxes and onerous/progressive regulations.

Philadelphia is not there yet and until we get to that point, it's my opinion that our leaders should focus more on attracting companies and growing high wage jobs as opposed to reinforcing the image that we're a difficult and expensive place to do business.

Surely, you don't think that the answer to Detroit's problems is to increase the minimum wage, raise taxes, and pass regulations to help out "the little guy"?

I'm not saying we're Detroit, but we're not Seattle either.

How do you think cities attract the kind of people who create businesses like Microsoft, Google and Amazon? Do you think Bezos was initially attracted to Seattle's tax structure? Have you ever researched the cost of doing in business in Silicon Valley?

Do you know why I moved here and opened a business back in 1998? Because a band I loved told me they were from here and the music scene was exciting. I didn't research tax structures back then, I wanted to be where other creatives I admired were. By the way, I grew up in this area and swore I'd never live in Philly, I hated this city in the late 80s.

If you make this city a destination for intelligent millennials, the jobs and money will flow. As a city, we need to vote out the Democratic machine and install young, progressive minds who will make this city a place that companies want to be in.

[Gonzo the Great]

Surely, you don't think that the answer to Detroit's problems is to increase the minimum wage, raise taxes, and pass regulations to help out "the little guy"?


It has become apparent that some posters think I am out of bounds when I ask questions about projects I have no
knowledge of . I'm not sure if it is because I don't know where to look or if I am just too lazy to bother . Maybe I have
just been expecting too much teaching from members I thought were willing to share the information / education , about
specific projects that I was unable to research on my own .... so I bumped the thread ..... burn my nuts at the stake .

So please forgive my lack of attention on excessing information but , I have to admit , I don't know who or what you are
referring to when you say " pass regulations to help out the little guy " .

PS . With regard to an earlier post .... What is the Rizzo street mind set ..... in your opinion , obviously .....

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by McBane

You can't compare Philadelphia to SF, Seattle, or NYC. Those cities have hugely successful and booming economies and far lower rates of poverty. It's very different to enact progressive taxes and regulations that could stifle business when you're already a successful booming city. Companies in those cities are willing to overcome high taxes and onerous/progressive regulations.

Philadelphia is not there yet and until we get to that point, it's my opinion that our leaders should focus more on attracting companies and growing high wage jobs as opposed to reinforcing the image that we're a difficult and expensive place to do business.

Surely, you don't think that the answer to Detroit's problems is to increase the minimum wage, raise taxes, and pass regulations to help out "the little guy"?

I'm not saying we're Detroit, but we're not Seattle either.

Seattle was a relatively small niche town - kind of like Portland now - 25 years ago. It's not a legacy powerhouse city like NYC or LA. Microsoft aside (based over in Redmond anyways), its crazy success is recent, and potentially repeatable. 25 years ago, it had a reputation as a hip, progressive, forward-looking, alternative, bohemian seaside mecca, not a tax haven.

I do think this convo is probably impacted by what 1) business we're all in and 2) age. As a person in a creative field who loved Philly's creative vibe and started a business here as well, I could honestly give two flying f**ks about the tax structure - it was about a cool place to work, with nearby smart and like-minded talent, affordable and moving in the right direction, etc..

Now, if you're an accountant, and none of that applies and your life's work is trying to rub 2 penny's together to make a nickel - then I can see how Philly through that lens comes off probably onerous and exasperating.

And I think we all agree that Philly needs to shift it's global perception somehow. McBane believes that perception shift is more about business taxes and regulations whereas others like reparcsyks think it's more about showcasing itself as cool, forward thinking, creative and sophisticated (and not a backwater). I do think McBane overestimates the impact of taxes with, say, a company of 10 30-somethings who are looking for a place to grow the "next big idea" into a thousand person company and want a cool, high-ceilinged, brick trimmed, loftspace at an affordable price in a hip neighborhood with a bunch of good beer options and nightlife for team-building events; that's bikeable, accessible to Amtrak and the airport, and proximity to elite university talent. Taxes and regulations - to a company like that - just aren't as high on the list as one might think.

[Jawnadelphia]

^^ Probably this.... RE: Rizzo mind set

https://billypenn.com/2015/11/13/i-take-...famous-frank-rizzo-video-35-years-later/

I still watch this clip every now and again for a good laugh.

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by TallCoolOne

I still watch this clip every now and again for a good laugh.

Yeah, because you're a crumb bum and a lush! All o' youse!
[I can tell.]

[reparcsyks]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Seattle was a relatively small niche town - kind of like Portland now - 25 years ago. It's not a legacy powerhouse city like NYC or LA. Microsoft aside (based over in Redmond anyways), its crazy success is recent, and potentially repeatable. 25 years ago, it had a reputation as a hip, progressive, forward-looking, alternative, bohemian seaside mecca, not a tax haven.

I do think this convo is probably impacted by what 1) business we're all in and 2) age. As a person in a creative field who loved Philly's creative vibe and started a business here as well, I could honestly give two flying f**ks about the tax structure - it was about a cool place to work, with nearby smart and like-minded talent, affordable and moving in the right direction, etc..

Now, if you're an accountant, and none of that applies and your life's work is trying to rub 2 penny's together to make a nickel - then I can see how Philly through that lens comes off probably onerous and exasperating.

And I think we all agree that Philly needs to shift it's global perception somehow. McBane believes that perception shift is more about business taxes and regulations whereas others like reparcsyks think it's more about showcasing itself as cool, forward thinking, creative and sophisticated (and not a backwater). I do think McBane overestimates the impact of taxes with, say, a company of 10 30-somethings who are looking for a place to grow the "next big idea" into a thousand person company and want a cool, high-ceilinged, brick trimmed, loftspace at an affordable price in a hip neighborhood with a bunch of good beer options and nightlife for team-building events; that's bikeable, accessible to Amtrak and the airport, and proximity to elite university talent. Taxes and regulations - to a company like that - just aren't as high on the list as one might think.

I bet those conservative accountants exist in Seattle and Portland -- and they're probably deluged with work from all of the successful companies that the hated hipsters have created.

Bike lanes, walkable neighborhoods, innovative restaurants, clean mass transit, vibrant parks, the list is endless. The thing is, there is so much energy and intelligence in this town to make these things happen. Government needs to get out of the way and let the people who know how to make stuff happen, make it happen.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Gonzo the Great

Surely, you don't think that the answer to Detroit's problems is to increase the minimum wage, raise taxes, and pass regulations to help out "the little guy"?


It has become apparent that some posters think I am out of bounds when I ask questions about projects I have no
knowledge of . I'm not sure if it is because I don't know where to look or if I am just too lazy to bother . Maybe I have
just been expecting too much teaching from members I thought were willing to share the information / education , about
specific projects that I was unable to research on my own .... so I bumped the thread ..... burn my nuts at the stake .

.....

Lol. People freely share information here. That's the point. If someone knew something, it would have been posted. Have you ever got a substantive response to one of your "We haven't heard anything about this project in months; what's happening?" posts? I believe no...because if there was inf, it was posted already. These forums are not a place where people forget about a project and need it bumped up to remember that they have intel. So one of those posts just gets people excited that there is new information about a long dormant product only to go to the end of the thread and see there is not, becoming disappointed...it doesn't really bug me that much. I just ignore it or see that there is no development and move on with my day. But seems to bug some others a lot.