The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[hipster duck]

Instead of a Montreal-Halifax train that serves the dual purpose of providing a land cruise for rich seniors and tourists as well as a local milk run through Eastern Quebec and coastal New Brunswick, I would prefer that the "cruise" be spun-off to a private company, and that the remaining gaps be filled with a variety of rail and bus operators.

I think that there should be a provincially-subsidized bus making all stops between Quebec and, say, Matapedia, then a NB-subsidized bus along the TCH between Campbellton and Moncton, and finally some joint NS-NB train service running semi-frequently (like 4 trains a day) between Moncton and Halifax. VIA should ultimately be under provincial control, kind of like how Amtrak is subsidized and run mostly by the states.

[someone123]

VIA has said that they want to do a Moncton-Halifax route that may serve Saint John as well. That would be quite useful and like you suggested could connect up with bus services to areas like Northern NB and PEI.

It is a little frustrating how bad these services are in the Maritimes compared to what they could be. A lot of people think the Maritimes are super remote but half the trouble of getting there is due to theoretically fixable transportation problems, not difficult geography.

The highway connection is bad too. There should be a decent highway through Maine, and I'm not even sure the Quebec portion of the TCH is twinned yet. The highways within the Maritime provinces are good but connecting up with them is not a priority for neighbouring jurisdictions.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

, and I'm not even sure the Quebec portion of the TCH is twinned yet. .

There is a 40 km stretch remaining to be twinned.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by someone123

VIA has said that they want to do a Moncton-Halifax route that may serve Saint John as well. That would be quite useful and like you suggested could connect up with bus services to areas like Northern NB and PEI.

It is a little frustrating how bad these services are in the Maritimes compared to what they could be. A lot of people think the Maritimes are super remote but half the trouble of getting there is due to theoretically fixable transportation problems, not difficult geography.

The highway connection is bad too. There should be a decent highway through Maine, and I'm not even sure the Quebec portion of the TCH is twinned yet. The highways within the Maritime provinces are good but connecting up with them is not a priority for neighbouring jurisdictions.

Quebec's working on it.

By 2025 every section of the new freeway should be opened, they said. (It was supposed to be done by 2021...)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Interesting how routes like Toronto-Montreal are still subsidized, and have the largest budget shortfalls. Many people believe that those core routes turn a profit that subsidizes all of the others.

For those who don't know, some of these routes are strangely contorted for political reasons (mainly to serve particular rural areas). The Montreal-Halifax train follows a very indirect route. It takes just under 12 hours to drive between those cities (already on an indirect highway) and the train takes over 22 hours! It is also late a lot. I took it once and I think it was more like 24 hours in each direction. In some sense it's not a Montreal-Halifax train, it's a train to serve small communities along the route with limited transportation options.

I suspect the reason the Montreal train runs via the Matapédia and then to Bathurst and down to Moncton is because there are more potential passengers there. Not necessarily because the population is that much more but because Acadians are more likely to have something to do in Montreal than NB anglos who populate the more western routing once you pass Grand Falls all the way to Moncton.

In theory there could also be Maritimers of all stripes connecting to Toronto and Ottawa in Montreal, but I'd say the complications of that trip probably discourage most travellers for doing it. If you're going from Halifax to Toronto you either drive or fly.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I suspect the reason the Montreal train runs via the Matapédia and then to Bathurst and down to Moncton is because there are more potential passengers there. Not necessarily because the population is that much more but because Acadians are more likely to have something to do in Montreal than NB anglos who populate the more western routing once you pass Grand Falls all the way to Moncton.

In theory there could also be Maritimers of all stripes connecting to Toronto and Ottawa in Montreal, but I'd say the complications of that trip probably discourage most travellers for doing it. If you're going from Halifax to Toronto you either drive or fly.

Actually, there was a line that ran down the border of USA, but the line is now abandoned and is now a rail trail.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I suspect the reason the Montreal train runs via the Matapédia and then to Bathurst and down to Moncton is because there are more potential passengers there. Not necessarily because the population is that much more but because Acadians are more likely to have something to do in Montreal than NB anglos who populate the more western routing once you pass Grand Falls all the way to Moncton.

In theory there could also be Maritimers of all stripes connecting to Toronto and Ottawa in Montreal, but I'd say the complications of that trip probably discourage most travellers for doing it. If you're going from Halifax to Toronto you either drive or fly.

I have this one friend who doesn't drive and is afraid of flying who takes the train to Montreal and back pretty much every year. Last summer I actually drove him up and he took the train back. It's a hellish drive (did the whole thing in one shot just stopping a couple times for gas and snacks) but the train takes twice as long. Not many people have time for that.

Even taking the train from Halifax to Moncton takes at least 50% longer than driving and it only makes 3 short intermediate stops. Trains are supposed to be FASTER than cars, not way slower. Have a trip twice a day, every day, make it cruise at 140km/h between stops and not have it have to keep stopping for freight trains, and maybe you'd have something.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I have this one friend who doesn't drive and is afraid of flying who takes the train to Montreal and back pretty much every year. Last summer I actually drove him up and he took the train back. It's a hellish drive (did the whole thing in one shot just stopping a couple times for gas and snacks) but the train takes twice as long. Not many people have time for that.

Even taking the train from Halifax to Moncton takes at least 50% longer than driving and it only makes 3 short intermediate stops. Trains are supposed to be FASTER than cars, not way slower. Have a trip twice a day, every day, make it cruise at 140km/h between stops and not have it have to keep stopping for freight trains, and maybe you'd have something.

I know people who do the same thing. I don't know what the passenger statistics are like but I would be kind of surprised if the stops in places like Matapédia (population 664) are the bread and butter of the route. Even if they are, it still makes sense to have that separate NS-NB train and in an alternate universe with better infrastructure and routing a Montreal-Halifax express train would probably be viable too. It's not that challenging to get a train up to 180 km/h or so.

High speed rail gets a lot of attention on here but there's probably a lot of low-hanging fruit when it comes to simply providing not-terrible-speed rail. The Moncton-Halifax stretch has about 700,000 people along a route that is 260 km or so, with some sizeable towns in between. If the trains were a bit faster and more reliable than the highways they'd attract a lot of riders.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

I know people who do the same thing. I don't know what the passenger statistics are like but I would be kind of surprised if the stops in places like Matapédia (population 664) are the bread and butter of the route. Even if they are, it still makes sense to have that separate NS-NB train and in an alternate universe with better infrastructure and routing a Montreal-Halifax express train would probably be viable too.

High speed rail gets a lot of attention on here but there's probably a lot of low-hanging fruit when it comes to simply providing not-terrible-speed rail. The Moncton-Halifax stretch has about 700,000 people along a route that is 260 km or so, with some sizeable towns in between. If the trains were a bit faster and more reliable than the highways they'd attract a lot of riders.

They take that route because there is no other route to take that is in Canada.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

They take that route because there is no other route to take that is in Canada.

There was a train called the Atlantic that ran from Montreal to Saint John and on to Halifax via Maine until 1994. This service had been going in some form along this route since the 1880's.

There is a good Wikipedia article on the history of this route: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_(train)

The article discusses the politics too:

Southwestern New Brunswickers were incensed at the cutting of the Atlantic's route, one which had seen daily passenger rail service in both directions between Saint John and Montreal since the International Railway of Maine opened in 1889. Community leaders along the route, led by rookie Saint John mayor Elsie Wayne, quickly rallied local populations to lobby the federal government. After several years and a personal promise by Brian Mulroney that his government would reinstate Via service on the route, the PC Party won election in 1984 and that December it was announced that the Atlantic would be returning to the rails.

...

Abandonment of passenger service for the second time on this route (by the same political party) was especially controversial for southwestern New Brunswickers who viewed it as a convenient excuse by the federal government to cut the service for both shortsighted fiscal and strategic political reasons. Paul Martin was making aggressive budget cuts throughout the federal government, thus concentrating service on the Ocean's route would likely save some money. The Ocean also travelled a route that passed through then-Minister of Transport Doug Young's riding of Acadie-Bathurst. The Atlantic also passed through the only two ridings in the country which elected Progressive Conservatives - Elsie Wayne in Saint John and Jean Charest in Sherbrooke. It also didn't help that the Atlantic passed through Maine (U.S. territory) on its short route between Montreal and Saint John.

The Atlantic route was 150 km shorter and served Saint John while the Ocean does not. I think it was shortsighted not to at least maintain this route in a usable state for passenger rail.

I am not sure what state the rail line through Maine is in (this is the rail line that goes through Lac-Mégantic). I think there is still a usable rail line between Moncton and Saint John, and there has been talk of at least doing a SJ-Moncton-Halifax route.

[someone123]

Saint John's Union Station, demolished in the 1970's, was at one point served by the Atlantic:


More pictures here: http://www.taddlecreekmag.com/tragic-hero

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

There was a train called the Atlantic that ran from Montreal to Saint John and on to Halifax via Maine until 1994. This service had been going in some form along this route since the 1880's.

There is a good Wikipedia article on the history of this route: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_(train)

The article discusses the politics too:



The Atlantic route was 150 km shorter and served Saint John while the Ocean does not. I think it was shortsighted not to at least maintain this route in a usable state for passenger rail.

I am not sure what state the rail line through Maine is in (this is the rail line that goes through Lac-Mégantic). I think there is still a usable rail line between Moncton and Saint John, and there has been talk of at least doing a SJ-Moncton-Halifax route.

With the current USA/Canada political stance, I doubt it would be viable. However, having the Downeaster extended to Moncton might be more plausible.

[333609543]

I think the primary problem with VIA Rail is track sharing with freight trains, At the very least along "The Corridor" VIA should have exclusive tracks for their passenger trains yet they don't. (I'm unsure as to why this is) I am aware of the expenses and strenuous process of buying only parts of a plot of land (anywhere) to add more tracks. However a good investment into expansion to build passenger exclusive tracks would be a good business decision between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle, which would most likely improve revenues on the services that run along those corridors.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by 333609543

I think the primary problem with VIA Rail is track sharing with freight trains, At the very least along "The Corridor" VIA should have exclusive tracks for their passenger trains yet they don't. (I'm unsure as to why this is) I am aware of the expenses and strenuous process of buying only parts of a plot of land (anywhere) to add more tracks. However a good investment into expansion to build passenger exclusive tracks would be a good business decision between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle, which would most likely improve revenues on the services that run along those corridors.

That is because Via does not own the tracks. In order to solve this, the government would need to own the lines throughout the country.

[333609543]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is because Via does not own the tracks. In order to solve this, the government would need to own the lines throughout the country.

I underdtand that they do not own the tracks, however to speed things up VIA could construct their own exclusive track in rural areas (and perhaps urban areas depending on if there is room for more tracks). From what I can tell, VIA could build tracks right next to the CNR ROW from Oshawa - Dorion, only merging to freight tracks through large(r) cities such as Kingston, Belleville, Cornwall, Cobourg & Port Hope. That's essentially what GO Transit did from Pickering - Oshawa along the side of CN tracks.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It's a hellish drive (did the whole thing in one shot just stopping a couple times for gas and snacks) .

Halifax to Montreal? I don't find it's a hellish drive. Certainly not by Canadian or Atlantic Canadian standards. I've done it countless times, about once every two years or so.

Though I guess if you don't stop overnight at all it's not as easy.

Even the 40-km undivided stretch south of Rivière-du-Loup isn't so bad as it's through unpopulated areas with lots of passing lanes. Though of course I will be very happy when that is done.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by 333609543

I underdtand that they do not own the tracks, however to speed things up VIA could construct their own exclusive track in rural areas (and perhaps urban areas depending on if there is room for more tracks). From what I can tell, VIA could build tracks right next to the CNR ROW from Oshawa - Dorion, only merging to freight tracks through large(r) cities such as Kingston, Belleville, Cornwall, Cobourg & Port Hope. That's essentially what GO Transit did from Pickering - Oshawa along the side of CN tracks.

It's probably cheaper/easier in the long run to build a whole new alignment and not deal with the existing railway at all. But obviously that is expensive and requires political will, of which there is none. Knowing the government as well, as soon as the line looked successful, they would sell it off and lose the investment anyway.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though I guess if you don't stop overnight at all it's not as easy.

I think that's an important point to keep in mind. Driving may only be 12-14h, but few people do it in one go. If you make an overnight stop, it brings the total travel time up to 20+ hours, comparable with the train.

I think there's a real opportunity for VIA to offer a competitive service if it shifts its focus from just tourism to a low-cost night train. The problem right now is that you can either take an expensive sleeper ($350 Montreal-Halifax at its cheapest) in which you can sleep, or an inexpensive ($100 at its cheapest) economy ticket in which you really can't.

If you could have a $150 ticket with some very basic 'economy' bunks with no meals, bells or whistles, as well as some minor speed improvements, I think it would be very competitive.

For example, if it's Friday night and I take the train and my buddy drives, I'd be able to leave after work and arrive in Halifax just after lunchtime (assuming the tracks have been moderately improved for greater speed).
My buddy would likely finish work, wait until Saturday morning and arrive in Halifax no earlier than 8 or 9 pm, assuming an early start and few breaks.

In this scenario, even if the trip took longer on the train, I'd arrive earlier after a good night's sleep and a morning spent relaxing on the train. My buddy's trip would be shorter, but he's arrived several hours after me, exhausted after having wasted a full day driving there.

It cost him $100-120 in gas. If my ticket was only $150, then it's a no-brainer to take the train.


Between Paris and Venice (about the same distance as Montreal-Halifax), you can take a night train at 7pm, arriving in Paris at 10am the next day. The cheapest accommodation (6-berth room) clocks in at $55.



It's not luxury, but at that price and with that schedule, it's a very attractive alternative to driving or flying.
I think that if VIA were to focus its efforts on providing a low-cost sleeper option for distances of about 1000km (such as Montreal-Maritimes or Calgary/Edmonton-Vancouver), it could carve itself a significant advantage over other modes of transportation.

[333609543]

I know many of you here are averse to privatised transport, however if a company/corporation/start up wished to create a better and more efficient rail system, (3 questions)
1. Would they even be allowed to? (CN & CP might be gov't sanctioned monopolies)
2. Assuming that competition with the already existing VIA Rail exists, would they be allowed to use "Union" or Central Station corridors which are usually shared/leased?
3. Would any of you support it despite being private sector?

[milomilo]

Irrevelant because no company would. It would require massive government support, in which case it might as well be the government that builds it.

And no, I wouldn't support it anyway. It destroys any possibility of harnessing network effects as any future lines would have to run as separate entities, and the biggest obstacle to us running efficient railways in Canada is precisely because they are in the hands of two companies. We'd be idiots to repaat that