Confederation Line West LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[J.OT13]

Bayshore is just serving the mall and the bus loop. The City doesn't seem to be considering the low-income, high density neighborhood when planning this. I reminds me of the LRT skipping Jasmin Crescent.

[eltodesukane]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

... the LRT skipping Jasmin Crescent.

Quite a failure there, a failure that will last for generations.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Bayshore is just serving the mall and the bus loop. The City doesn't seem to be considering the low-income, high density neighborhood when planning this. I reminds me of the LRT skipping Jasmin Crescent.

There is a MUP planned for connecting the station to Woodridge Cres. I am curious what reasonable changes you would make to improve things? The mall is in the way and unless you are proposing that they tunnel under it, I am not sure what route would get the station closer to the housing.

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

Quite a failure there, a failure that will last for generations.

While I agree that they should be building a station at Jasmine, at least they have an optional, future station designed into the plans. The question is, if or when will it be built. The issue is that the surounding area is already built up, so there is not future TOD potential, so there are no lobby groups bribing pressuring for a station.

[J.OT13]

They are moving the station further and further from the community. I would build the station in line with the bus station and have a second entrance with pedestrian bridge on the west side.

As for Jasmin Crescent, transit planning should not be purely about TOD. Transit should also serve areas that have attained a high density. That said, Orleans Boulevard is to have a station, but the area is low density and has no absolutely no room for TOD, but it serves more middle-class residents, the desired patronage of the rail line.

[kevinbottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

They are moving the station further and further from the community. I would build the station in line with the bus station and have a second entrance with pedestrian bridge on the west side.

As for Jasmin Crescent, transit planning should not be purely about TOD. Transit should also serve areas that have attained a high density. That said, Orleans Boulevard is to have a station, but the area is low density and has no absolutely no room for TOD, but it serves more middle-class residents, the desired patronage of the rail line.

The station at Orleans Boulevard will be the Ottawa version of Glencairn Station, and that's not a compliment.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

They are moving the station further and further from the community. I would build the station in line with the bus station and have a second entrance with pedestrian bridge on the west side.

I don't believe there were ever any plans to have an entrance on the west end of the platform since the bus terminal would be in the way. They would have to build a second overpass over the bus terminal and then expropriate some land to build a second MUP about 50m from the existing one.

If you look again at the drawing, there is a MUP (in green) that runs along the north edge of the bus terminal and bays to Holly Acres Rd. They could split that MUP and have a second one to Woodridge Cres further west, but that would require either co-operation from the land owner or expropriation.

As for Jasmin Crescent, transit planning should not be purely about TOD. Transit should also serve areas that have attained a high density.

Ya, I was being a little sarcastic as to why there isn't a station there.

That said, Orleans Boulevard is to have a station, but the area is low density and has no absolutely no room for TOD, but it serves more middle-class residents, the desired patronage of the rail line.

Playing devils advocate for a moment, there are buses running along Orleans Blvd. and with there being no on or off ramps, it is easy to put bus stops on the overpass to make the transfer to and from the LRT easier. As a result, it could become a popular transfer point. If Jasmine Station was built, even though buses do currently run along Jasmine, I can't imagine it being a popular bus/LRT transfer station as it would be a decent walk from the bus to the station and it would probably be easier to stay on the bus until Blair. As a result, it would primarily be a station for those within walking distance of the station.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

While I agree that they should be building a station at Jasmine, at least they have an optional, future station designed into the plans. The question is, if or when will it be built. The issue is that the surounding area is already built up, so there is not future TOD potential, so there are no lobby groups bribing pressuring for a station.

What's in it for the existing city and its existing residents, if the whole purpose of LRT ends up being to justify future TOD, especially when Ottawa has an absolutely lousy record on orienting its development to transit?

At what point do we start considering the transit needs of, and benefits to, established communities?

The cheap-out vision, the one that favours the suburbs, areas of detached owner-occupied homes, and middle classes and up, is a recipe for more sprawl. Sure, it'll be notionally "transit-oriented" sprawl, but sprawl nonetheless, in which the fancy LRT whisks civil servants to and from their weekday jobs, but where the transit capital and operating budget has to be cannibalized from every other type of trip and user and neighbourhood. And those same civil servants will still, by and large, drive for most of their other transportation needs.

This is not how you build, or rebuild, a city.

This is how you end up with more low-density monocultural suburbs, more implicit transfers of public funds from the core to the periphery, and more deeply-entrenched classism in the city's political culture.

[SWEARS REDACTED]

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't believe there were ever any plans to have an entrance on the west end of the platform since the bus terminal would be in the way. They would have to build a second overpass over the bus terminal and then expropriate some land to build a second MUP about 50m from the existing one.

I didn't think they ever had a west entrance, I just think that would help the connectivity with the residential area to the north-west.

If you look again at the drawing, there is a MUP (in green) that runs along the north edge of the bus terminal and bays to Holly Acres Rd. They could split that MUP and have a second one to Woodridge Cres further west, but that would require either co-operation from the land owner or expropriation.

I hadn't noticed the MUP initially. They should at least build a secondary MUP at the west side of the bus loop to connect to Woodridge to better distribute the pedestrian traffic coming to and from the area.

Ya, I was being a little sarcastic as to why there isn't a station there.

Sorry, I didn't catch that. Neither did Uhuniau apparently.

Playing devils advocate for a moment, there are buses running along Orleans Blvd. and with there being no on or off ramps, it is easy to put bus stops on the overpass to make the transfer to and from the LRT easier. As a result, it could become a popular transfer point. If Jasmine Station was built, even though buses do currently run along Jasmine, I can't imagine it being a popular bus/LRT transfer station as it would be a decent walk from the bus to the station and it would probably be easier to stay on the bus until Blair. As a result, it would primarily be a station for those within walking distance of the station.

That could be the saving grace for the station if the City uses this advantage to its full potential, reducing the number of transfers required at Place d'Orleans. The same applies with Jeanne d'Arc (though that area has on/off ramps, it's still very much possible).

I wonder if Toronto uses Glencairn in this way.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I didn't think they ever had a west entrance, I just think that would help the connectivity with the residential area to the north-west.

It would help, but at best it would save less than 100m of walking. It would mean a second set of fare gates, so I am not sure how it would fair on the cost/benefit analysis.

I hadn't noticed the MUP initially. They should at least build a secondary MUP at the west side of the bus loop to connect to Woodridge to better distribute the pedestrian traffic coming to and from the area.

Agreed. Once again though, since the bus loop is a fare paid zone, I am not sure if they would put fair gates (and an overpass) at that end of the platform. If not, it would only be to provide a nicer walking route.

Sorry, I didn't catch that. Neither did Uhuniau apparently.

I thought the "bribe" comment made it obvious, but I guess not.

That could be the saving grace for the station if the City uses this advantage to its full potential, reducing the number of transfers required at Place d'Orleans. The same applies with Jeanne d'Arc (though that area has on/off ramps, it's still very much possible).

I was skeptical about Jeanne d'Arc, but given that they are relocating the "northbound to westbound" On-Ramp, maybe that is the plan.

I wonder if Toronto uses Glencairn in this way.

What is this Glencairn station? When I first read it, I thought kevinbottawa was talking about Glen Cairn in Kanata (this is the western corridor thread after all), which confused me as there isn't (nor are there plans for) a station there.

[J.OT13]

They moved Jeanne d'Arc Station to the west side of the overpass? That's disappointing. I was hoping they would build entrances on both sides of the street like Cyrvile and Pimisi. I guess that eliminates it's potential as a transfer station for Jeanne d'Arc bus routes.

Both Orleans Boulevard and Jeanne d'Arc platforms are shown as under their respective overpasses on GeoOttawa.

Here's Toronto's Glencairn;


https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...-9s-kfa.27835/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glencairn_station

6th lowest ridership of the TTC at 6,040 boardings per day. Lower riderships are on the Scarborough RT (3 stations), Sheppard (one station) and Yonge (one station at the original railyards).

[AndyMEng]

But you have to read through the potential of that MUP.

Pedestrians will walk to the parking lot behind the western apartment buildings. 100% guarantee they then travel through the parking lot onto Woodridge. There's just no actual physical design for it.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't believe there were ever any plans to have an entrance on the west end of the platform since the bus terminal would be in the way. They would have to build a second overpass over the bus terminal and then expropriate some land to build a second MUP about 50m from the existing one.

If you look again at the drawing, there is a MUP (in green) that runs along the north edge of the bus terminal and bays to Holly Acres Rd. They could split that MUP and have a second one to Woodridge Cres further west, but that would require either co-operation from the land owner or expropriation.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

But you have to read through the potential of that MUP.

Pedestrians will walk to the parking lot behind the western apartment buildings. 100% guarantee they then travel through the parking lot onto Woodridge. There's just no actual physical design for it.

Unless of course the tenants of that building who have cars in that parking lot complain and have the landlord put up a fence on the west side of the parking lot and driveway (it looks like there already is one on the south side of the parking lot) all the way to Woodridge.

The other factor is in winter the snow will likely be piled up beside the parking lot, making it more challenging to use that shortcut.

They do have an L shaped path (in grey) from the back door of that building to Woodridge, so it would be nice if they extended that path to the MUP, but that is private land, so it would be the responsibility of the Landlord, not the city.

[Reecemartin]

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[eltodesukane]

Older view from Google Map:

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Can you elaborate about this Lincoln Fields station, I'm totally ignorant to it . . .

Confederation line splits south of Lincoln Fields to Baseline and Bayshore. So they plan to build Lincoln Fields with 2 platforms and 3 tracks with a flyover South of the station. I'm not sure how exactly it will work at this point.
I believe the plan is to interline during the day with one track serving Baseline bound trains, one track - Bayshore bound trains, and middle track to serve Downtown bound trains. During the night they want to run a shuttle to Baseline from one of the tracks I think.

[Reecemartin]

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[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Not sure how the multiple outbound tracks surrounding the inbound will work but sounds like a bit of a routing nightmare.

I don't think the inbound track would be in the centre. Most likely trains to and from Moodie would use the centre track. Trains from Baseline would use the eastern most track and trains to Baseline would use the western most track. That way if you want to go from Moodie to Baseline (or vice versa) you just walk across the platform. But that isn't the reason for the tipple track arrangement (the same thing could be done with 2 tracks)

At most times of the day, trains would either alternate between going to/from Baseline and Moodie (and in peak periods cycle between Baseline, Moodie and Lincoln Fields). As long as service is at least 7-8 minutes, you get 15 minute frequency on each of the splits. However, when the service drops to 15 minutes on the main line (early morning and late night), splitting the line would result in 30 minute service on each of the splits, and that is considered too infrequent. As a result they would have the main line always travel to Baseline and meet up with a train to Moodie at Lincoln Fields. It would be scheduled so that all three trains would arrive at about the same time. When the train arrives from Moodie in the centre platform, doors on both sides of the train will open and those going downtown would get off on the right and those going to Baseline would get off on the left. Either way they just walk across the platform to the other train. Those on the trains from downtown or Baseline wanting to go to Moodie, would also be able to just walk across the platform and get on the train.

In theory they could do it the other way around and have direct trains to Moodie, but looking closer at the track layout, I think it is designed for direct trains to Baseline. It is probably the right move as there is probably more late night travel to Baseline than there is to Moodie.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by roger1818

In theory they could do it the other way around and have direct trains to Moodie, but looking closer at the track layout, I think it is designed for direct trains to Baseline. It is probably the right move as there is probably more late night travel to Baseline than there is to Moodie.

Didn't they design this thing before extension to Barrhaven was in the plans?
I think it would make more sense to send direct trains to Bayshore (and Kanata, once phase 3 is built)