O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Double tracking both for VIA and Trillium at that?

It certainly wouldn't hurt.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Also any word on whether the existing stations will get improvements along with Stage 2, like full canopies etc?

Based on the available documents, it doesn't seem like it. Gladstone, Walkley, and Mooney's Bay will all be (re)built to all be more or less the same. Small pedestrian plaza at street level with elevators and stairs and then small shelters at platform level. They'll all be quite similar to existing Carling Station.

Of course, once the final contract is awarded, there might always be some design changes...

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Also plans for MSF expansion? The current on doesn't seem like a proper msf . . .

Apparently a new one is being built somewhere near the existing one. I thought it was going to be where Clifford Allen Park currently is, but I think I saw someone had asked a worker about the new MSF during Doors Open and they said it would be on the south side of Walkley Yard.

Edit: http://www.stage2lrt.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Appendix7.pdf

[OCCheetos]

Moving the conversation here...

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Trillium Line does not run on a schedule, so I would be doubtful of any promises of coordination.

"Clean and well lit" has not been the design standard for any other station. Why would this one be different? Even if it is, it is a clean and well lit station in an area that would make many visitors to the city uncomfortable, particularly at times when many flights operate (early morning or late at night).

The Trillium Line actually does follow a schedule. The trains at Greenboro and Bayview depart at the time listed on the timetables (or within a minute of that time). Given how complex the track layout will be post-Stage2, not to mention the Airport and Mainline sharing a platform, I have no doubt that the line will continue to operate under a fixed schedule. (After all, the Trillium Line can't be run the same way as the Confederation Line).

I would also assume that the stations will be build to a better standard since they a) aren't being built as part of a pilot project, and b) the design is being done by whoever wins the contract for the project (much like Stage 1). I don't think we'll get huge grandiose stations like the Confederation Line, but we'll probably get something a little more than a concrete slab with a single lamp post on it.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Moving the conversation here...



The Trillium Line actually does follow a schedule. The trains at Greenboro and Bayview depart at the time listed on the timetables (or within a minute of that time). Given how complex the track layout will be post-Stage2, not to mention the Airport and Mainline sharing a platform, I have no doubt that the line will continue to operate under a fixed schedule. (After all, the Trillium Line can't be run the same way as the Confederation Line).

I would also assume that the stations will be build to a better standard since they a) aren't being built as part of a pilot project, and b) the design is being done by whoever wins the contract for the project (much like Stage 1). I don't think we'll get huge grandiose stations like the Confederation Line, but we'll probably get something a little more than a concrete slab with a single lamp post on it.

Not to mention since the platforms will be extended (since we'll be using 80m trains for the trillium line, not just 40m) I'm sure there's more room to do things with the bigger station footprint. (and maybe even keeping a similar design style across the system.)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Trillium Line does not run on a schedule, so I would be doubtful of any promises of coordination.

They are making changes that will allow trains to catch up more easily when they get behind schedule. Even so, as I said before, it is still easy to co-ordinate the departures and arrivals even if the line isn't on a schedule. Northbound, just have the train leave the airport when the other train is approaching Leitrim Station (the exact timing can be worked out). Southbound is even easier as you have the airport train pull up just after the other southbound train departs.

"Clean and well lit" has not been the design standard for any other station. Why would this one be different? Even if it is, it is a clean and well lit station in an area that would make many visitors to the city uncomfortable, particularly at times when many flights operate (early morning or late at night).

With the transitway station in the way, visitors will unlikely see more than a bus station, trees and a MUP.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

As someone who spends about half their time in Vancouver you are really comparing Apples and Oranges with the Canada Line, its literally a fully automated (ATC) light metro that operates with pretty extreme precision, thats a far cry from an every 15 minute 2 stop DMU service.

With a highly automated system its ok to have slightly restrictive trackage because every train is coordinated to the T by a control centre,

These aren't buses on wheels where the drivers do whatever they want. Even though there is a driver, the trains are still controlled by a control centre. Just look at Europe's intercity trains. At stations in the middle of their route, the doors close 10 seconds before departure time and it pulls away when the second hand hits the 12. We probably won't have that degree of accuracy because of other conflicts, but it can be done.

and even then most people think the termini of the Canada Line should still be double tracked because it restricts frequency. Ottawa would be wise to double track as much as possible.

Most of the concern is with the single track into Richmond–Brighouse, not YVR–Airport. If they had double tracked that section, they could have 1 in 3 (or maybe even 1 in 4) trains go to the Airport and still maintained a 6 minute peak frequency to it.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

With the transitway station in the way, visitors will unlikely see more than a bus station, trees and a MUP.

Or, if station times are coordinated, all they'll see is another train!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Or, if station times are coordinated, all they'll see is another train!

Not likely unfortunately. There isn't room for a triple track platform (like they are building at Lincoln Fields), and since the North and Southbound will likely need to pass each other at South Keys, they will likely have to have the train from the airport arrive first, unload and clear the platform for the two through trains. Once the southbound train has departed, the airport train can pull up and pick up its passengers.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Moving the conversation here...



The Trillium Line actually does follow a schedule. The trains at Greenboro and Bayview depart at the time listed on the timetables (or within a minute of that time). Given how complex the track layout will be post-Stage2, not to mention the Airport and Mainline sharing a platform, I have no doubt that the line will continue to operate under a fixed schedule. (After all, the Trillium Line can't be run the same way as the Confederation Line).

That is how it used to operate (when there were only two trains and they crossed at Carleton). That is not how they operate now.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

They are making changes that will allow trains to catch up more easily when they get behind schedule. Even so, as I said before, it is still easy to co-ordinate the departures and arrivals even if the line isn't on a schedule. Northbound, just have the train leave the airport when the other train is approaching Leitrim Station (the exact timing can be worked out). Southbound is even easier as you have the airport train pull up just after the other southbound train departs.

And then somebody holds the door open to load their luggage and the schedule is off. I guess you could make the trains coming from Riverside South wait at the junction until trains from the airport trains enter the main line and then follow into South Keys but that would lead to a lot of delays.

And again, all of this complicated coordination and delays are for no good reason. This service is worse than the bus, worse than uber, worse than a cab, and worse than parking.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Not likely unfortunately. There isn't room for a triple track platform (like they are building at Lincoln Fields), and since the North and Southbound will likely need to pass each other at South Keys, they will likely have to have the train from the airport arrive first, unload and clear the platform for the two through trains. Once the southbound train has departed, the airport train can pull up and pick up its passengers.

Alternatively, the Northbound and airport trains can be scheduled to arrive at South Keys at the same time, and mainline trains can pass each other at Leitrim or Brookfield instead. Not sure how well it would work in practice, but it's an idea.

Originally Posted by acottawa

That is how it used to operate (when there were only two trains and they crossed at Carleton). That is not how they operate now.

You're thinking of the Trillium Line too much like something like the Confederation Line. The Confederation Line can operate on a frequency basis since there's never the question of how/when two trains going the opposite direction can pass each other. They'll always be able to. The Trillium Line doesn't have that luxury. It's operated more akin to something like GO trains (which follow a fixed schedule), just with a more frequent schedule. Just because they market it off of frequencies, doesn't mean they don't use schedules internally. (Which is what would make coordination like this possible).

Also, I take the Trillium Line regularly and I can guarantee that they are still operating based on a schedule. Those new displays at stations don't display live times, but the trains at Greenboro always depart at the time listed on those screens (which are from the timetable).

Originally Posted by acottawa

And then somebody holds the door open to load their luggage and the schedule is off. I guess you could make the trains coming from Riverside South wait at the junction until trains from the airport trains enter the main line and then follow into South Keys but that would lead to a lot of delays.

And again, all of this complicated coordination and delays are for no good reason. This service is worse than the bus, worse than uber, worse than a cab, and worse than parking.

That's kind of stretching your argument isn't it? Regular commuters can hold up a train just as badly. I guess trains are bad now because of that? Dwell times can be built into the schedule if necessary. As it currently stands, trains dwell at Greenboro and Bayview for about 7 minutes.

The trains used will also be level with the platform which makes loading luggage rather trivial when compared to, say, a bus.

Speaking of buses, how is this worse than the bus? The bus stop at the airport is kind of out of the way, requires lifting luggage onto the bus, and the bus is far less forgiving in terms of space for luggage. Also, the 97 doesn't exactly take a direct route downtown... Hurdman is basically the Bayview of the 97.
Compared to cabs or uber, the train will be cheaper. (I wonder if they'll be using the normal $3.50 fare for the airport spur?)

[zzptichka]

Current alignment appears to look like this. Hopefully they figure out how to make it more efficient.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Alternatively, the Northbound and airport trains can be scheduled to arrive at South Keys at the same time, and mainline trains can pass each other at Leitrim or Brookfield instead. Not sure how well it would work in practice, but it's an idea.



You're thinking of the Trillium Line too much like something like the Confederation Line. The Confederation Line can operate on a frequency basis since there's never the question of how/when two trains going the opposite direction can pass each other. They'll always be able to. The Trillium Line doesn't have that luxury. It's operated more akin to something like GO trains (which follow a fixed schedule), just with a more frequent schedule. Just because they market it off of frequencies, doesn't mean they don't use schedules internally. (Which is what would make coordination like this possible).

Also, I take the Trillium Line regularly and I can guarantee that they are still operating based on a schedule. Those new displays at stations don't display live times, but the trains at Greenboro always depart at the time listed on those screens (which are from the timetable).



That's kind of stretching your argument isn't it? Regular commuters can hold up a train just as badly. I guess trains are bad now because of that? Dwell times can be built into the schedule if necessary. As it currently stands, trains dwell at Greenboro and Bayview for about 7 minutes.

The trains used will also be level with the platform which makes loading luggage rather trivial when compared to, say, a bus.

Speaking of buses, how is this worse than the bus? The bus stop at the airport is kind of out of the way, requires lifting luggage onto the bus, and the bus is far less forgiving in terms of space for luggage. Also, the 97 doesn't exactly take a direct route downtown... Hurdman is basically the Bayview of the 97.
Compared to cabs or uber, the train will be cheaper. (I wonder if they'll be using the normal $3.50 fare for the airport spur?)

Good Day.

The best option with the currently planned setup at SK (IMHO) remains the plan of:
1) arrival of the airport shuttle on northbound side, and unload, followed by move into the Y-tail track just to the north.
2) arrival of both north and south mainline Bayview / Limebank unload and load and departure.
3) move of the shuttle to the southbound side, load for airport, and depart.

Thx zzptichka for the diagram - still can't do that. ;-)

Timings for this should be well within the new capability planned into the properly executed expansion of Phase 2 (as opposed to the incomprehensible disaster of the interim expansion). Plus - that will be part and parcel of putting it off to a private partner consortium to properly run and operate and maintain. (Yeah, I know, but hope really does spring eternal from time-to-time ! ).

As for the fare, I could see them charging a premium at the airport entrance to the platform for boarding passengers there, but the only way to charge a premium for airport-bound passengers is to have them tap out through the faregates to add the premium to the already-paid standard fare. IMHO it would be a mistake to charge a premium at all, but who knows how the powers-that-wannabe actually consider generating passenger desire and traffic.

EnJoy!

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

The best option with the currently planned setup at SK (IMHO) remains the plan of:
1) arrival of the airport shuttle on northbound side, and unload, followed by move into the Y-tail track just to the north.
2) arrival of both north and south mainline Bayview / Limebank unload and load and departure.
3) move of the shuttle to the southbound side, load for airport, and depart.

That would probably work pretty well.

Unfortunately though, I believe the Y track marked on the map is simply there to indicate space allocated for a future addition. (Much like the space left for a siding just east of Hurdman, or the freight siding marked on the map at Lester)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

And then somebody holds the door open to load their luggage and the schedule is off. I guess you could make the trains coming from Riverside South wait at the junction until trains from the airport trains enter the main line and then follow into South Keys but that would lead to a lot of delays.

If someone holding the door for 30 seconds puts you way off schedule, you are threading the needle too tightly. I expect they will try to have the airport train arrive at South Keys 2 minutes before the other train. That gives them 1 minute for delays and 1 minute to empty the train and leave. I don't see a 2 minute wait being all that big a deal. They can also adjust the speed of the train based on if they are delayed or not (normally they run under the speed limit to not arrive too soon, but if behind they can speed up to the limit to catch up).

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Alternatively, the Northbound and airport trains can be scheduled to arrive at South Keys at the same time, and mainline trains can pass each other at Leitrim or Brookfield instead. Not sure how well it would work in practice, but it's an idea.

According to geoottawa, the next passing track north of South Keys will be just north of Walkley and the next passing track to the south will be just past the airport split. Both are about 2 km from South Keys. I don't think 4km between passing tracks is sufficient for the frequencies they are looking for.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

That's kind of stretching your argument isn't it? Regular commuters can hold up a train just as badly. I guess trains are bad now because of that? Dwell times can be built into the schedule if necessary. As it currently stands, trains dwell at Greenboro and Bayview for about 7 minutes.

Regular commuters are not trying to coordinate a simultaneous arrival or departure. The Trillium line cannot coordinate simultaneous arrivals now (otherwise trains wouldn't have to wait at the passing tracks)

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Speaking of buses, how is this worse than the bus? The bus stop at the airport is kind of out of the way, requires lifting luggage onto the bus, and the bus is far less forgiving in terms of space for luggage. Also, the 97 doesn't exactly take a direct route downtown... Hurdman is basically the Bayview of the 97.

Compared to cabs or uber, the train will be cheaper. (I wonder if they'll be using the normal $3.50 fare for the airport spur?)

The bus stop is a one minute walk from the front door. If you are unable to lift your luggage 6 inches you can ask the driver to lower the ramp. I agree it isn't a particularly direct route, but neither is the trillium line and it avoids transfers. I also agree the luggage situation is not ideal, which is why I suggested a dedicated airport bus with better luggage facilities.

In most cities, the reason people take the train is because it is the fastest way into the city centre. Hardly anyone would take the Canada Line in Vancouver if you had to transfer at Bridgeport to catch a train coming from Richmond and transfer again at say Marine Drive to catch a train downtown.

If it isn't faster (or at least comparable) then you're losing anyone who can expense their trip (a significant portion of YOW passengers headed to the city centre) and anyone who isn't going to get too fussed over $20. That just leaves you with railway enthusiasts and people who are very budget conscious (who are probably taking the bus now and will find the train less convenient because of the extra transfers).

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

That would probably work pretty well.

Unfortunately though, I believe the Y track marked on the map is simply there to indicate space allocated for a future addition. (Much like the space left for a siding just east of Hurdman, or the freight siding marked on the map at Lester)

Good Day.

This South Keys op-plan and pocket-track has been part-and-parcel of the recommended plan since the last comprehensive analysis, EA and TPAP. That said, as always, it remains for the final contract and build bid-winner to develop and execute their own plan as awarded by the City (probably in total and comprehensive secrecy, as usual ) to come out in 2021 with what we finally get !

As always, we shall finally see what, when we finally see what finally is !

EnJoy!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Unfortunately though, I believe the Y track marked on the map is simply there to indicate space allocated for a future addition. (Much like the space left for a siding just east of Hurdman, or the freight siding marked on the map at Lester)

In this case, I believe the Y track is real as it is a crucial part of the operation of the Airport shuttle. Unfortunately the city has been as clear as mud on their intentions so we may not know for sure until construction is well under way.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

You're thinking of the Trillium Line too much like something like the Confederation Line. The Confederation Line can operate on a frequency basis since there's never the question of how/when two trains going the opposite direction can pass each other. They'll always be able to. The Trillium Line doesn't have that luxury. It's operated more akin to something like GO trains (which follow a fixed schedule), just with a more frequent schedule. Just because they market it off of frequencies, doesn't mean they don't use schedules internally. (Which is what would make coordination like this possible).

Also, I take the Trillium Line regularly and I can guarantee that they are still operating based on a schedule. Those new displays at stations don't display live times, but the trains at Greenboro always depart at the time listed on those screens (which are from the timetable).

I used to be the first person to jump into discussions to say that the train doesn't follow a schedule, but that has changed in the past year. You are correct that the train does operate on schedule, albeit with a little bit more variability then the old 2 train system. The timepoint is now at Carleton, instead of Bayview and Greenboro, so trains will hold at Carleton to maintain schedule. There is less makeup time then there was before though, so if there is an issue that causes a delay greater than a couple of minutes, one trip has to be skipped to get back on schedule.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Regular commuters are not trying to coordinate a simultaneous arrival or departure. The Trillium line cannot coordinate simultaneous arrivals now (otherwise trains wouldn't have to wait at the passing tracks)

The Trillium line is hamstrung by a 30 second delay in the signals. At Brookfield, the siding is long enough that the northbound train usually proceeds through without stopping, but the southbound train crawls along waiting for a signal. At Gladstone, both trains have to wait as the track is much shorter. This isn't a coordination issue, they are coordinated to meet, but the wait won't go away.

There was also discussion of the new MSF. I believe the facility is moving to the west side of Albion road, but will remain on the north side of the tracks, and will be within the existing rail yard.