The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

That isn't true at all though, partly, but not entirely, for the reasons you have said. 'Commuter rail' is neither simple nor cheap, and the only Canadian cities (Toronto and Montreal) where it approaches those criteria already have systems in place, and are developing them further - but neither cheaply nor simply.

Railways in Canada are owned by monopolies, not the people. For that reason alone (though there are others), it will never be simple or cheap to build commuter rail here. Those monopolies want as much control of those railways as they can, prioritising their freight over passenger services, and where they do give a little, it will be at a price favourable to them and not to us.

So it is usually easier to build brand new systems than attempt to use existing railways. Along with the previous reason, there is also the fact that the monopolys' infrastructure is poorly maintained crap unsuitable for moderate speed passenger rail and unelectrified, so we either accept crappy service or pay CP/CN to upgrade the line at great expense.

Oh yeah, and because of North America's moronic FRA rules, we can't use proper, nice passenger trains here and are forced to use monstrous, inefficient tanks instead.

Simple and cheap - you must be joking! So many reasons why it is neither.

We really need to nationalize the entire country. Then it is leased or rented back. It would not only solve the commuter train issues, but it would also solve the intercity passenger services issues. It is wrong for a scheduled passenger train to be late regularly by 12 hours.

[J.OT13]

Again, not saying commuter rail is the answer for everyone. Ottawa doesn't have enough of that existing infrastructure. Edmonton and Calgary are compact, so LRT can be built to serve the entire city. Toronto on the other hand has commuter rail. Likely the best system in North America, yet politicians are pushing subway lines further and further into the suburbs already well served by GO. Old Toronto on the other hand is served by overcapacity subways and streetcar lines. Next to nothing is being invested to improve the situation there.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

We really need to nationalize the entire country. Then it is leased or rented back. It would not only solve the commuter train issues, but it would also solve the intercity passenger services issues. It is wrong for a scheduled passenger train to be late regularly by 12 hours.

There are many reasons to, but it would be difficult now. The market cap of CN is $78B.

Actually, I don't support fully nationalizing the railways, just the ownership of the track and its maintenance and then government regulation of service. Pretty much the UK model really but with tweaks.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Again, not saying commuter rail is the answer for everyone. Ottawa doesn't have enough of that existing infrastructure. Edmonton and Calgary are compact, so LRT can be built to serve the entire city. Toronto on the other hand has commuter rail. Likely the best system in North America, yet politicians are pushing subway lines further and further into the suburbs already well served by GO. Old Toronto on the other hand is served by overcapacity subways and streetcar lines. Next to nothing is being invested to improve the situation there.

That's the first time I've heard anyone call Calgary compact!

So Toronto is really the only example of a Canadian city where commuter rail is feasible, and that is the only city where it is being expanded with GO RER and SmartTrack, at huge expense. So what more could be done with commuter rail in Canada? Montreal is building the REM, so there's not much else.

I agree though, subways to the suburbs are largely a waste of money. It wouldn't be so bad if the inner city was being given them too, but they aren't.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There are many reasons to, but it would be difficult now. The market cap of CN is $78B.

Actually, I don't support fully nationalizing the railways, just the ownership of the track and its maintenance and then government regulation of service. Pretty much the UK model really but with tweaks.

That is what I was thinking of too.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by milomilo

So what more could be done with commuter rail in Canada? Montreal is building the REM, so there's not much else.

VIA has actually proposed running a commuter rail system in the Halifax area. Vancouver has a commuter rail service as well (West Coast Express).

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Hali87

VIA has actually proposed running a commuter rail system in the Halifax area. Vancouver has a commuter rail service as well (West Coast Express).

Yep. Calgary may also get some sort of passenger rail one day as well. It's very tricky and limited though. It relies on CP not being dicks (unlikely) and then you're still limited to wherever the rails already are, which is not particularly likely to be where you actually want rail service to go.

Essentially, because Canadian cities haven't had passenger rail in place for a century like other cities, that in itself makes them much less attractive options to build.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by milomilo

That's the first time I've heard anyone call Calgary compact!

So Toronto is really the only example of a Canadian city where commuter rail is feasible, and that is the only city where it is being expanded with GO RER and SmartTrack, at huge expense. So what more could be done with commuter rail in Canada? Montreal is building the REM, so there's not much else.

I agree though, subways to the suburbs are largely a waste of money. It wouldn't be so bad if the inner city was being given them too, but they aren't.

The REM isn’t commuter rail, just an at-grade/elevated metro with some underground sections.

[TownGuy]

Originally Posted by Hali87

VIA has actually proposed running a commuter rail system in the Halifax area. Vancouver has a commuter rail service as well (West Coast Express).

Proposed, especially for VIA, doesn't mean much and the WCE is only one line isn't it?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

The REM isn’t commuter rail, just an at-grade/elevated metro with some underground sections.

Uh, lets not make this into a semantics debate. They're using sections of railway formerly used as 'commuter rail' (a nebulous term) and converting it into a proper passenger rail network, correct? In fact, I think now REM might be the gold standard for future networks to copy - though I don't have enough knowledge of Montreal to know whether it's going to be as good practically as it is on paper to someone in Calgary.

I prefer to simply say 'passenger rail' anyway as commuter rail in Canada conjures up images of clunky, ginourmous, double deck monsters of trains running in one direction a few times a day. Awful. If we're going to bother with passenger rail in other cities, let's not do that, make it to the standard of passenger rail in Europe, where those Green GO monsters would be an aberration.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Uh, lets not make this into a semantics debate. They're using sections of railway formerly used as 'commuter rail' (a nebulous term) and converting it into a proper passenger rail network, correct? In fact, I think now REM might be the gold standard for future networks to copy - though I don't have enough knowledge of Montreal to know whether it's going to be as good practically as it is on paper to someone in Calgary.

I prefer to simply say 'passenger rail' anyway as commuter rail in Canada conjures up images of clunky, ginourmous, double deck monsters of trains running in one direction a few times a day. Awful. If we're going to bother with passenger rail in other cities, let's not do that, make it to the standard of passenger rail in Europe, where those Green GO monsters would be an aberration.

The REM is a metro system with enclosed stations akin to SkyTrain but with full platform doors and heating/AC. They bought remaining tracks from the CN and the ex-AMT for the tunnel.

CN/CP refuses to let more train on its tracks and it's next to impossible to add tracks. Thus the CDPQi proposed the REM, which names means in French "express metro network".

[franktko]

REM will be running every two and a half minutes in rush hour, certainly not a commuter rail system...

[FFX-ME]

Clearly REM is a metro system. The question is more along the lines of why they don't simply add it to the existing metro system.

But I do get the confusion since at present it is a commuter rail system, but it will be converted to a metro, simple enough. It will also be the second largest (or largest, not sure) fully automated metro system in North America (or world, not sure).

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Clearly REM is a metro system. The question is more along the lines of why they don't simply add it to the existing metro system.

But I do get the confusion since at present it is a commuter rail system, but it will be converted to a metro, simple enough. It will also be the second largest (or largest, not sure) fully automated metro system in North America (or world, not sure).

Because it's an express metro system, not underground and not run by the STM. They could have but they chose to make it distinct.

There is one line that is being converted, and by converted I mean tracks ripped off and electrical system replaced plus stations built and old train platforms removed. The conversion is being made because it costs almost a third per passenger than a commuter train to operate, plus infrastructure (tunnel) was already there so it was cheaper to build.

It will be the third largest entirely automated metro system in the world. First being Vancouver's SkyTrain.

The Liberals and CAQ (both leading parties) want to extended the REM by tens of km if they win the elections. With LRT chosen for Surrey and Langley, the REM will probably be the longest entirely automated driverless metro system in the world in a few years. (some systems have automated lines but not their entire system)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

Proposed, especially for VIA, doesn't mean much and the WCE is only one line isn't it?

The city has been looking at operating this service and has already partly funded it. VIA came onto the scene when they suggested that they could operate it more cheaply than what was estimated in the commuter rail study commissioned by the city.

The track they want to use is also used by CN so that adds to the difficulty in planning and implementation, and it might have a negative impact on the schedule.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Essentially, because Canadian cities haven't had passenger rail in place for a century like other cities, that in itself makes them much less attractive options to build.

It depends on the city.

Commuter rail in Halifax started up in the 1800's and for a long time ran along the same route that's being proposed today. This proposal is basically just restoration of the old service, and the line runs along a pretty good route. It is fully grade separated. It is arguably a no-brainer at this point because the roads running along the same route would be very hard to expand. The only wrinkle is that the track is shared with CN.

This line also still has the long-distance passenger train that goes to Montreal, and VIA has talked about adding another train that stops in New Brunswick.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

My point about suburban transit might not have been as clear as I had hoped. Of course we need to serve the suburbs, but the suburbs often times can be served adequately with simple, cheap, commuter rail (I'm thinking more high quality, high frequency GO Transit in the GTHA more than the limited AMT in Montreal). The fact is, most suburbanites only use transit to get in and out of the city during the week, and not as a way to get around evenings in weekends, so investing in high capacity subways/metros doesn't make sense.

Average Weekday Boardings, 2016

MiWay: 188,000
Brampton Transit: 105,000
York Region Transit: 105,000
Durham Region Transit: 52,000
Oakville Transit: 11,000
Burlington Transit: 8,000
Milton Transit: 2,000

GO Train: 217,000
GO Bus: 67,000

Local 905: 471,000
GO Transit: 284,000

If suburbanites mostly used transit to get in/out of the city, there wouldn't be a Hurontario LRT being planned right now (if Doug Ford hasn't yet killed it).

In the Montreal area, the RTL already has per capita transit ridership on par with Calgary Transit, CTA, Muni. I don't see why focus so much on expanding park-and-ride-based GO and AMT services instead of local transit, especially if you are worried about sprawl.

[GreaterMontréal]

AMT

it's EXO.
https://exo.quebec/en/index.html

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

it's EXO.
https://exo.quebec/en/index.html

Is it though? Is it really?

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Is it though? Is it really?

the AMT became the RTM, and then EXO 1 year later.

Since June 1, 2017, exo has been operating regular transit services by train and bus, as well as paratransit services for people with disabilities on the territory of the Communauté métropolitaine de Montréal, which covers 82 municipalities, the Kahnawake Indian Reserve and the city of Saint-Jérôme. The exo network has 6 train lines, 62 train stations, 237 bus lines and 52 taxibus, 71 incentive parking spaces offering 27,500 spaces and 3,500 bicycle spaces. Exo is the second largest public transit operator in the Montreal metropolitan area. In 2017, it handled nearly 45 million trips: 20 million by train, 24 million by bus and 675,000 by paratransit. exo.quebec

https://rtm.quebec/fr/a-propos/medias-pu...u-de-transport-metropolitain-devient-exo

so now there are only 4 transit agencies in the GMA, the STM, STL, RTL and EXO,

EXO = exurbs

the term exo illustrates the choice that the majority of our users made to live outside the "big center" of Montreal.