West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I'm sure some community association or another is.

What community association represents Major's Hill Park?

They can't argue history since there were catenary wires from 1901 to 1946.

Will anybody notice anyways? Of course, that doesn't stop some people from complaining.

[roger1818]

I was thinking and the timing might be good for STO, as Alstom and will be finishing up Stage 2 LRT in 2023 and if the STO gets their order in before Alstom stops production of Ottawa's Citadis Spirits, the STO might be able to get a good deal on them as they could just continue production, which would save money compared to shutting down production and starting up again (or building a new production facility for a different model of train). The key would be getting the trains across the river from the Belfast yard to Gatineau.

STO would still need their own MSF, but it would be cheaper to manufacture the trains at Belfast. The configuration could be different (STO would probably get a shorter train) but the basic assembly would be the same.

This would give Ottawa time to raise money for Stage 3 and hopefully have Alstom roll over construction from STO back to more trains for OC Transpo. Even if we weren't ready for Stage 3, we could piggyback on STO's order to buy more trains to increase capacity (a small order of 5 or 10 trains would be expensive otherwise). By continuously feeding the assembly line with orders for more trains, costs can be kept down, which would benefit both transit systems.

The only thing is the Quebec government may insist on Bombardier trains and having them manufactured in Quebec.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I was thinking and the timing might be good for STO, as Alstom and will be finishing up Stage 2 LRT in 2023 and if the STO gets their order in before Alstom stops production of Ottawa's Citadis Spirits, the STO might be able to get a good deal on them as they could just continue production, which would save money compared to shutting down production and starting up again (or building a new production facility for a different model of train). The key would be getting the trains across the river from the Belfast yard to Gatineau.

STO would still need their own MSF, but it would be cheaper to manufacture the trains at Belfast. The configuration could be different (STO would probably get a shorter train) but the basic assembly would be the same.

This would give Ottawa time to raise money for Stage 3 and hopefully have Alstom roll over construction from STO back to more trains for OC Transpo. Even if we weren't ready for Stage 3, we could piggyback on STO's order to buy more trains to increase capacity (a small order of 5 or 10 trains would be expensive otherwise). By continuously feeding the assembly line with orders for more trains, costs can be kept down, which would benefit both transit systems.

The only thing is the Quebec government may insist on Bombardier trains and having them manufactured in Quebec.

If they were to be assembled at Belfast and then shipped to Gatineau, they'd need to install an industrial lead from the Via tracks into Belfast Yard. Then they could route them south through Walkley Yard, onto Ellwood and then North across the river. (Or they could just ship them using trucks like what has been done with the Confederation Line trains).

I don't think it's true that the Quebec Government would insist on Bombardier. Alstom has been involved in the production of Montreal's new metro trains and will also be building the trains for the REM. I think it'll be procured like all transit purchases are and the contract will go to the best bidder. Given the current state of Bombardier's light rail division though, it doesn't look good for them.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I was thinking and the timing might be good for STO, as Alstom and will be finishing up Stage 2 LRT in 2023 and if the STO gets their order in before Alstom stops production of Ottawa's Citadis Spirits, the STO might be able to get a good deal on them as they could just continue production, which would save money compared to shutting down production and starting up again (or building a new production facility for a different model of train). The key would be getting the trains across the river from the Belfast yard to Gatineau.

If only there were some kind of track that crossed the river. Perhaps on its own bridge.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Horus

If only there were some kind of track that crossed the river. Perhaps on its own bridge.

The rails for the confederation line don't connect to the rail for the trillium line ever, is that isn't possible to use for this.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by corynv

The rails for the confederation line don't connect to the rail for the trillium line ever, is that isn't possible to use for this.

Not right now, but as OCCheetos said, the Belfast yard is adjacent to VIA Rail's tracks, so they could install an industrial lead from them. VIA's tracks connect to to the Walkley Yard which connect to the Trillium Line. They would have to reconnect the Trillium Line to the bridge and ensure the bridge is safe to use. There are some obstacles, but nothing insurmountable.

Here is a rough diagram of how the yard could be connected safely.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by corynv

The rails for the confederation line don't connect to the rail for the trillium line ever, is that isn't possible to use for this.

Like I mentioned in my reply, all it would require is a connection between Belfast Yard and the Via tracks just outside. This wouldn't be a very difficult modification to make in the grand scheme of things.
Edit: Exactly what @roger1818 said.

[acottawa]

How do the vehicles get to Belfast now? They aren't manufactured in Ottawa, they just add the seats and stuff.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

How do the vehicles get to Belfast now? They aren't manufactured in Ottawa, they just add the seats and stuff.

They are assembled in Ottawa (from various parts, not just adding seats). The parts are manufactured in New York and then shipped here by truck.
Only the first train was shipped pre-assembled.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

They are assembled in Ottawa (from various parts, not just adding seats). The parts are manufactured in New York and then shipped here by truck.
Only the first train was shipped pre-assembled.

Yup. From https://www.railway-technology.com/u...-rail-project/

17 FEBRUARY 2013
Alstom to supply 34 Citadis Spirit trams to the Ottawa light rail project
. . .

All LRV components will be produced in the US, while the final assembly will be carried out in Ottawa.

It is analogous to the auto industry where the automakers have the parts made elsewhere but assemble the cars in the factories.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Yup. From https://www.railway-technology.com/u...-rail-project/



It is analogous to the auto industry where the automakers have the parts made elsewhere but assemble the cars in the factories.

It's just a shame they didn't opt to use rail to transport the parts.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

It's just a shame they didn't opt to use rail to transport the parts.

Agreed. I suspect part of the problem is that while there are good routes for trucks to travel from Hornell, NY to Ottawa, trains need to go via Buffalo and Toronto to get to Ottawa. Also, I'm sure not all of the parts are coming from Hornell. Some of the parts may be flown to YOW and trucked to Belfast Yard.

It comes down to a bigger issue of Ottawa having really poor rail freight infrastructure. We really should have an intermodal facility near the 416 or 417 (and optimally another one across the river near the 5 or 50) to allow trucks to pick up their load and quickly and easily deliver it to their final destination (or drop it off to ship out of the region).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Agreed. I suspect part of the problem is that while there are good routes for trucks to travel from Hornell, NY to Ottawa, trains need to go via Buffalo and Toronto to get to Ottawa. Also, I'm sure not all of the parts are coming from Hornell. Some of the parts may be flown to YOW and trucked to Belfast Yard.

It comes down to a bigger issue of Ottawa having really poor rail freight infrastructure. We really should have an intermodal facility near the 416 or 417 (and optimally another one across the river near the 5 or 50) to allow trucks to pick up their load and quickly and easily deliver it to their final destination (or drop it off to ship out of the region).

Found a reference to support this:

The LRVs will be assembled at city operator OC Transpo’s new Belfast Yard facility from components produced at Alstom sites in the USA (Hornell), France (Saint-Ouen, Valenciennes, Ornans, Le Creusot, Tarbes, Villeurbanne), Italy (Sesto), and Poland (Katowice).

http://www.tautonline.com/first-conf...tram-revealed/

[lrt's friend]

The simple solution, assuming that STO uses the POW bridge is to build a connector track at Bayview.

I saw a LRV body being transported piggy back on a truck travelling north on south Bank Street. I think I mentioned it on this board the day I saw this happen, perhaps in October 2015.

[McC]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It comes down to a bigger issue of Ottawa having really poor rail freight infrastructure. We really should have an intermodal facility near the 416 or 417 (and optimally another one across the river near the 5 or 50) to allow trucks to pick up their load and quickly and easily deliver it to their final destination (or drop it off to ship out of the region).

That's not the way freight rail works anymore, we're located within 500km from intermodal terminals in the Montreal and Toronto regions, which is well within the cost effective radius for trucking. Unless it's a shortline or a spur serving a specific facility, mine or niche market, freight rail is about achieving velocity by running extremely long trains for long distances without stopping.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The simple solution, assuming that STO uses the POW bridge is to build a connector track at Bayview.

I saw a LRV body being transported piggy back on a truck travelling north on south Bank Street. I think I mentioned it on this board the day I saw this happen, perhaps in October 2015.

That would probably be too expensive. The simplest solution is as described above: connect Belfast yard to the Via tracks and then route trains via Walkley Yard and then the Trillium Line.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The simple solution, assuming that STO uses the POW bridge is to build a connector track at Bayview.

I saw a LRV body being transported piggy back on a truck travelling north on south Bank Street. I think I mentioned it on this board the day I saw this happen, perhaps in October 2015.

As stated in the Confederation Line | U/C | Opening November 2018 thread, the first train arrived in Ottawa from Hornell, NY in November 2016.

Maybe it was the mock-up you saw, as it was delivered in January 2015.
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2...led-in-ottawa/

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As stated in the Confederation Line | U/C | Opening November 2018 thread, the first train arrived in Ottawa from Hornell, NY in November 2016.

Maybe it was the mock-up you saw, as it was delivered in January 2015.
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2...led-in-ottawa/

I am pretty sure it was in the fall, and I didn't have my new phone yet, which I bought in September 2016. It was not a mock-up. It may have been the first shell of an LRV arriving in Ottawa. I was surprised to see it that day. I could be mistaken about it being fall, but it certainly was not winter.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by McC

That's not the way freight rail works anymore, we're located within 500km from intermodal terminals in the Montreal and Toronto regions, which is well within the cost effective radius for trucking. Unless it's a shortline or a spur serving a specific facility, mine or niche market, freight rail is about achieving velocity by running extremely long trains for long distances without stopping.

I realize that, but with global warming and increasing highway congestion, we need to reconsider how we want to move goods. The problem is we are subsidizing the trucking industry by providing them with cheap access to highways but the railways have to pay for their own track. As a result, this change would require government intervention to encourage freight to be delivered closer to its final destination by rail. It would likely save the government money in the long run in reduced highway maintenance costs.

[lrt's friend]

It was December 3, 2015 when I saw the LRV shell being transported on Bank Street.