Winnipeg | 300 Main St.- Phase II 360 Main St. | 465 Ft | 42F | Completed

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by esquire

South downtown already has a grocery store, the nicely improved Family Foods. Plus there's Safeway just across the bridge.

I still find Family Foods to be more like an overgrown convenience store, kind of like Rabba Fine Foods in Toronto except without the convenient opening hours. Personally, as a downtown dweller, I don't find it sufficient for my needs.

I normally take the bus across the bridge to Safeway for groceries. Out of curiosity, a couple months ago I took my Safeway receipt to Family Foods to see how the prices compared. It worked out to a few dollars more expensive at Family Foods, not necessarily a deal breaker, but they just didn't carry about 25% of the items that I was looking for.

I would think that something like the small but incredibly well-stocked No Frills at Notre Dame and Langside would do extremely well downtown. In the basement of the Bay maybe?

[CoryB]

I have been saying it for some time the current trends in retail in general, and more specifically grocery retailing, along with the typical lease costs for downtown Winnipeg retail means a grocery won't happen. It doesn't matter which site, which project or how much the density increases. When you are running the retail operation and can hit the same customers with a suburban warehouse, a website and a couple of vans you can't write a viable business case to support a downtown, walk-in grocery store. It gets even worse when you are running that service out of a cheaper suburban store that also generates higher walk-in sales on its own. It's partially why urban grocery stores in other markets were closed and the current and future states of the online delivery business only make it get worse.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

I still find Family Foods to be more like an overgrown convenience store, kind of like Rabba Fine Foods in Toronto except without the convenient opening hours. Personally, as a downtown dweller, I don't find it sufficient for my needs.

Yeah, fair enough. When I lived downtown I shopped at Family Foods once in a while, mainly for lighter shops where I just needed some milk and a few other things in a pinch. But they do have a full range of the basics... there's definitely more in there than a typical Carrefour City would have, for instance.

As CoryB pointed out though, between the costs of operating and the still somewhat low residential density of downtown I'm not sure how much more than that we could expect. Maybe something similar to Family Foods in or around the Exchange so that both the northern and southern parts of downtown would have a basic but proper grocery store, and for the rest, either drive elsewhere or get it delivered.

[robertocarlos]

I live in the Broadway and Donald area and yesterday I walked to and from Safeway on River and I also walked to and from that store on Notre Dame (I don't know the name).
It was an interesting day of afternoon walks. Twenty five minutes to Safeway and 35 minutes to Extra Foods? I stopped for 30 seconds to watch a man yelling at a police car to stop because he was just robbed right beside the Balmoral Hotel. He crossed the busy street right in front of traffic which stopped for him. Yellling at the cops the whole time. The cops weren't that interested and looked liek they would leave but then they drove up to him and another cop car came up behind them and they arrested?, detained the man. The made him sit on the sidewalk for their own and his safety I guess as the guy was quite agitated. I always see something interesting, usually wildlife, when I don't take the bus to these stores.

[robertocarlos]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Lol what exactly makes a market or grocer "European style"

Those wood strips on the bottom or top of the cupboard doors and high prices.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

I presume you mean a Carrefour City location and not the full-meal deal?



I have long thought a compact Carrefour City or something like it would be great in Winnipeg. They're small but they're usually remarkably well stocked. They would definitely be useful for providing the basics. One in the Exchange District would be very useful.

Although pondering it further, I suppose you could say that Giant Tiger does have the basic Carrefour City selection, even if it doesn't present it in a very stylish way like Carrefour does.

Giant Tiger has almost no produce. It’s more of a Walmart before they introduced grocery. Like a small Zellers lol.

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

I still find Family Foods to be more like an overgrown convenience store, kind of like Rabba Fine Foods in Toronto except without the convenient opening hours. Personally, as a downtown dweller, I don't find it sufficient for my needs.

I normally take the bus across the bridge to Safeway for groceries. Out of curiosity, a couple months ago I took my Safeway receipt to Family Foods to see how the prices compared. It worked out to a few dollars more expensive at Family Foods, not necessarily a deal breaker, but they just didn't carry about 25% of the items that I was looking for.

I would think that something like the small but incredibly well-stocked No Frills at Notre Dame and Langside would do extremely well downtown. In the basement of the Bay maybe?

FF is decent, stop their on my way home sometimes. It’s ugky but does the trick for stockups. Def still need to make superstore runs for specialty stuff and meats.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Giant Tiger has almost no produce. It’s more of a Walmart before they introduced grocery. Like a small Zellers lol.

They've actually upped their game considerably. They renovated the store a year or two ago and there is much more fruit and produce. Still obviously a basic selection relative to a true supermarket, but you can definitely cover the essentials. It isn't bad for what I'd consider "in between" shops.

FF is decent, stop their on my way home sometimes. It’s ugky but does the trick for stockups. Def still need to make superstore runs for specialty stuff and meats.

Honestly I think you may have hit the nail on the head as to why Family Foods is so often overlooked. It is kind of a homely little store. No one enjoys shopping there but they do provide the basics including the range of departments like meat, produce and IIRC bakery. They improved the store considerably a couple of years ago so there is more now than there was when I lived in the area.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

They've actually upped their game considerably. They renovated the store a year or two ago and there is much more fruit and produce. Still obviously a basic selection relative to a true supermarket, but you can definitely cover the essentials. It isn't bad for what I'd consider "in between" shops.

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Honestly I think you may have hit the nail on the head as to why Family Foods is so often overlooked. It is kind of a homely little store. No one enjoys shopping there but they do provide the basics including the range of departments like meat, produce and IIRC bakery. They improved the store considerably a couple of years ago so there is more now than there was when I lived in the area.

That's good to hear – used to go there all the time when I managed restaurants in the area, about the only fruit they carried were bananas and lemon/limes, pretty much just for when bars run out, haha.

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Yeah FF honestly has everything you could need outside of exotic produce. Just don't have a lot of options or selections for everything, and not the best meat. But it would do/does the trick for a lot of people.

Amazon will add Whole Foods products soon and you'll be able to get all the specialty groceries you want delivered for $100 a year.

[Kronos]

I wonder if there’s any thought in the future of having a grocery pick up depot like the AmazonFresh Pickup service downtown in lieu of a traditional grocery store?

[buzzg]

^I think there's potential, but considering 2 of the 3 major chains will have delivery by 2019, don't know if it's even necessary.

Could see Superstore using one of their quieter stores or even a distribution centre to handle all deliveries, and roll out a fleet of hybrid/electric vans, so they can brand them PC Green.

Loblaws has a history of innovation, and I'm sure they're cooking up something smart.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by robertocarlos

I live in the Broadway and Donald area and yesterday I walked to and from Safeway on River and I also walked to and from that store on Notre Dame (I don't know the name).
It was an interesting day of afternoon walks. Twenty five minutes to Safeway and 35 minutes to Extra Foods? I stopped for 30 seconds to watch a man yelling at a police car to stop because he was just robbed right beside the Balmoral Hotel. He crossed the busy street right in front of traffic which stopped for him. Yellling at the cops the whole time. The cops weren't that interested and looked liek they would leave but then they drove up to him and another cop car came up behind them and they arrested?, detained the man. The made him sit on the sidewalk for their own and his safety I guess as the guy was quite agitated. I always see something interesting, usually wildlife, when I don't take the bus to these stores.

Gee, imagine what will happen when he tries to cross and P&M after it opens ...

[robertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Ando

Gee, imagine what will happen when he tries to cross and P&M after it opens.

Hard to tell which would be more dangerous. The police looked like they were ready to draw their guns. At P&M he'd be run over for sure.

[tvor202]

Originally Posted by buzzg

^I think there's potential, but considering 2 of the 3 major chains will have delivery by 2019, don't know if it's even necessary.

Could see Superstore using one of their quieter stores or even a distribution centre to handle all deliveries, and roll out a fleet of hybrid/electric vans, so they can brand them PC Green.

Loblaws has a history of innovation, and I'm sure they're cooking up something smart.

For now, I think, their delivery services will be handled through instacart

https://globalnews.ca/news/4181397/loblaw-expanding-online-grocery-business/

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by DowntownBooster

So you're saying that construction will start on 330 Main before 300 Main? I didn't think they decided what was going to be built in the middle section yet (i.e. grocery store, hotel or other).

Originally Posted by buzzg

^By all accounts the centre portion design seemed to have been completed for a while, regardless of what eventual tenants were going in. I also thought they flat out said it'd be a grocery store?

They chased it hard, vigilantly.

Realioty is that Grocery is a slow game in Canada right now, where most major retailers aren't doing well. Those staying afloat are playing it safe, and I'd imagine they'd sooner take over existing grocers than open a new one.

Factor in the fact that everyone is playing wait-and-see with Amazon and that it was hard to get a grocer downtown when they were all performing, and a perfect storm killed this opportunity some time ago unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Ando

Too bad, looks like the downtown grocer idea isn't progressing well. Maybe what is included in the food aspect of True North will at least provide a basic, or maybe higher end grocery option. I think a mid-sized grocer would do well in some downtown location. It's usually ideal to include them in developments like this one.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Wpg Square always struck me as an odd location for a grocer anyway. Not many people live around there and notwithstanding 300 Main, that won't change much in the years ahead.

I think a small greengrocer in the Exchange, augmented by existing small Chinese markets and Save-On delivery service is what the northern part of downtown will likely have to live with for the next while.

South downtown already has a grocery store, the nicely improved Family Foods. Plus there's Safeway just across the bridge.

I kinda disagree... it would have been perfect. Grocery stores serve decently large radii, and even though this one would rely more on foot traffic, it still would have been the only great option in downtown.

More importantly, it's super connected to everything. All the professionals would have bought groceries there also. There is no need to stop en route home, find parking amidst the rush, etc, because you're already parked at work. It's connected to everything downtown and near the highest desnity of high earning professionals, whether they live downtown or not.

Originally Posted by trueviking

I would way rather have a butcher baker and candlestick maker in three separate shops than a big suburban grocery store.

Same, but we don't yet have a strong enough market where artisan sausage shops can pay top dollar rent.

[ediger]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

They chased it hard, vigilantly.

Realioty is that Grocery is a slow game in Canada right now, where most major retailers aren't doing well. Those staying afloat are playing it safe, and I'd imagine they'd sooner take over existing grocers than open a new one.

Factor in the fact that everyone is playing wait-and-see with Amazon and that it was hard to get a grocer downtown when they were all performing, and a perfect storm killed this opportunity some time ago unfortunately.

Agreed.

I kinda disagree... it would have been perfect. Grocery stores serve decently large radii, and even though this one would rely more on foot traffic, it still would have been the only great option in downtown.

More importantly, it's super connected to everything. All the professionals would have bought groceries there also. There is no need to stop en route home, find parking amidst the rush, etc, because you're already parked at work. It's connected to everything downtown and near the highest desnity of high earning professionals, whether they live downtown or not.

Same, but we don't yet have a strong enough market where artisan sausage shops can pay top dollar rent.

Who's talking about an artisan sausage shop? Something like a Miller's Meats or a Vic's Fruit Market would be a welcome addition that I think could do pretty well downtown.

[Wpg_Guy]

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1721/42671546672_ffa59f7e9f_b.jpg

[bomberjet]

Nice photo. BellMTS got their name up on every nook and cranny of those buildings.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

More importantly, it's super connected to everything. All the professionals would have bought groceries there also. There is no need to stop en route home, find parking amidst the rush, etc, because you're already parked at work. It's connected to everything downtown and near the highest desnity of high earning professionals, whether they live downtown or not.

Doubtful. Few people are going to want to lug groceries from the supermarket to wherever the car's parked and then drive home to wherever.

The people who buy meaningful amounts of groceries (i.e. more than just a couple of items) are going to be the ones that live downtown, and there is not enough of a critical mass near Portage and Main yet to really justify a supermarket there.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

downtown would have a basic but proper grocery store, and for the rest, either drive elsewhere or get it delivered.

Weston Foods (aka Superstore/Shoppers) has being testing a model where Shoppers have a more extended range of food than what you see at stores here including more common fresh produce. It is possible once the 300 Main renovations finish the Shoppers will expand into the former Chamberlains space and offer a range of groceries similar to the larger suburban locations with extra focus on fresh items too. Toss in a dedicated hold area for online orders for Superstore and there is a decent option for people living near there if they don't want to drive to a full range store.

End of the day as much as residents may want/need a grocery store downtown or in the Exchange end of the day the retailer needs to be able to cover their costs and generate some revenue. Keep in mind all those current residents are getting their grocery needs met somehow...

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by buzzg

^I think there's potential, but considering 2 of the 3 major chains will have delivery by 2019, don't know if it's even necessary.

Weston Foods (Superstore/Shoppers) and Save on Foods already have their online grocery ordering systems live in Winnipeg. Walmart, a huge player in groceries, has long had all the systems in place but hasn't gone live locally. Sobey's is well behind the curve on this but announced this year a partnership with a EU firm that has deeper experience in the field. So basically all four major players are ready to strike. The big unknown is when Amazon is going to pounce. Adding the regional fulfilment centres in Calgary and Ottawa in addition to previous two national centres hints they are definitely making moves in the direction but it is likely a 2+ year horizon still.

The Superstore model shows how you can efficiently run a retail store and have it also act as a distribution centre for your online service. Currently Superstore is doing "click and collect" meaning you need to go to the store to receive your purchase. That said shifting from "click and collect" to "click and deliver" has already solved the more challenging parts of the process. Dispatching a van to pick up and order and bring it to you is fairly easy in comparison.

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As for the Winnipeg Square grocery store, the location was horrible from the start. Grocery stores commonly receive large volumes of heavy pallets of product. The Winnipeg Square middle location would have required a decent size hold area so the truck could be unloaded quickly and then also a freight elevator to move pallets between the below grade loading dock and the above grade retail location. Those just add to the overall operation costs as they are effectively dead space you need to pay a lease on.]

The most promising location for downtown grocery was actually the original Glass House proposal that had at-grade retail under the parkade.