Rural Commuter Rail

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Honestly, Bayview is not exactly "not downtown." I'm not saying it isn't barren at the moment but it's not like a quick bus hop to Rideau or Hull is somehow impossible from Bayview.

And let's be realistic, we're never getting a downtown train station again. That ship sailed long ago. With the anticipated growth at LeBreton Flats and being closer to government offices downtown and in Hull, Bayview is absolutely our one and only chance at a "downtown train station" of sorts, and has some space to work with.

With the Trillium Line trains effectively being commuter-type trains, Bayview should become a commuter rail hub since it can be accessed from both sides of the river, and can connect to Kanata and Barrhaven. It also has room to grow at the moment. Bayview should definitely be proposed as a potential commuter rail hub, and encouraged to become a reality. Again, going back to my "create a VIA subsidiary to tackle transprovincial commuter rail in the region" idea, Bayview would serve as the only realistic (if not utterly ideal) commuter collector hub. Not only will it be a destination in the future thanks to redevelopment, but it can adequately collect commuters from both sides of the river who with a single transfer can get anywhere else they might like to go.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

With the Trillium Line trains effectively being commuter-type trains, Bayview should become a commuter rail hub since it can be accessed from both sides of the river, and can connect to Kanata and Barrhaven. It also has room to grow at the moment. Bayview should definitely be proposed as a potential commuter rail hub, and encouraged to become a reality. Again, going back to my "create a VIA subsidiary to tackle transprovincial commuter rail in the region" idea, Bayview would serve as the only realistic (if not utterly ideal) commuter collector hub. Not only will it be a destination in the future thanks to redevelopment, but it can adequately collect commuters from both sides of the river who with a single transfer can get anywhere else they might like to go.

The problem with Kanata is that the existing rail corridors dip too far south on their way to Bayview. The only viable rail option for Kanata is to extend the LRT. (That said, and as others have mentioned, it really shouldn't go any further than Terry Fox.)

If HFR ever happens and the entire track between Smiths Falls and Ottawa is double tracked, the city could take advantage of that and run Trillium Line-style service along that track between Barrhaven (and maybe even Richmond) and Bayview by interlining it with the existing Trillium Line at the Elwood Junction.
That would probably be significantly cheaper to the city than either an LRT extension or a new rail bridge across the river (to extend the existing Trillium Line into Barrhaven). Everything North of Mooney's Bay station would need to be double tracked, but that should be done regardless.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Horus

Hypothetically, suppose you ran a double tracked DMU down the median of the Queensway from Carp Rd to Trim Rd. There could be a few stops at both the Kanata and Orleans ends to use as collection points, but there would be minimal stops within the Greenbelt, only to serve as connections to Confederation Line (at Bayshore, Tremblay, and Blair) and to Trillium Line (shifting Gladstone station slightly south to be accessible from a Queensway/Trillium line junction). This way, suburban commuters could choose where to interact with the higher-stop-frequency LRT lines at a location that best suits them. Tremblay would serve as the central station of this network.

So basically in the west rebuild the aprox. first 10 miles of the Ottawa, Arnprior and Parry Sound Railway in the west and then re-route west of that and in the east rebuild the L’Orignal subdivision in the east. Gréber would roll over in his grave.

Does anyone know when the tracks for the Ottawa, Arnprior and Parry Sound Railway (later the Renfrew Sub) east of the junction with the Beachburg Sub? The 1958 aerial photograph shows them gone already (though there is evidence of them) but they are there in the 1928 photograph.

I found a reference here that the L’Orignal Sub was mostly removed in 1939.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

So basically in the west rebuild the aprox. first 10 miles of the Ottawa, Arnprior and Parry Sound Railway in the west and then re-route west of that and in the east rebuild the L’Orignal subdivision in the east. Gréber would roll over in his grave.

Does anyone know when the tracks for the Ottawa, Arnprior and Parry Sound Railway (later the Renfrew Sub) east of the junction with the Beachburg Sub? The 1958 aerial photograph shows them gone already (though there is evidence of them) but they are there in the 1928 photograph.

I found a reference here that the L’Orignal Sub was mostly removed in 1939.

According to the maps on this page those tracks were abandoned in September of 1952.

As a minor note, the Trillium Line is on the old Ellwood subdivision. The Prescott subdivision is everything south of Greenboro (basically).

Speaking of Ellwood and Commuter Rail... That first page makes me sad.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

According to the maps on this page those tracks were abandoned in September of 1952.

As a minor note, the Trillium Line is on the old Ellwood subdivision. The Prescott subdivision is everything south of Greenboro (basically).

Speaking of Ellwood and Commuter Rail... That first page makes me sad.

Thanks! Nice to know.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The problem with Kanata is that the existing rail corridors dip too far south on their way to Bayview. The only viable rail option for Kanata is to extend the LRT. (That said, and as others have mentioned, it really shouldn't go any further than Terry Fox.)

Actually, the problem is looking at this "geographic challenge" and seeing it as an impossibility and non-viable because it doesn't hug the water. Stop and think about it; what would actually be faster that brings you to the same destination? 14 stops on the "milk run" to Bayview, or 8 stops on the commuter line to Bayview?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Actually, the problem is looking at this "geographic challenge" and seeing it as an impossibility and non-viable because it doesn't hug the water. Stop and think about it; what would actually be faster that brings you to the same destination? 14 stops on the "milk run" to Bayview, or 8 stops on the commuter line to Bayview?

From March Rd and Carling Ave to Bayview, it is 21 km via bus and LRT (transferring at Eagleson) and 26 km via your commuter rail route, so the Commuter rail route is 24% further, meaning it's average speed would have to be 24% faster just to break even. So even ignoring that March and Carling would be a detour for most Kanata/Stittsville residents, the shorter route of the Confederation Line will make up for a lot of the extra stops for those going to/from Kanata North.

A longer route at a faster average speed often takes the same amount of time as a shorter route at a slower average speed. That is why when driving from Kanata to Toronto, it usually takes about the same amount of time to take the slower but shorter (391 km) Hwy 7 as it does to take the faster but longer (444 km) 416 (see link to map below). In that case it is only 14% shorter.

https://goo.gl/maps/n1ss2aS3Dw92

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Horus

Hypothetically, suppose you ran a double tracked DMU down the median of the Queensway from Carp Rd to Trim Rd.

There's no way this could be engineered without massive impact on road capacity. So that means expensive grade separation. And for what reason is it necessary to use the highway? The whole point of even considering suburban rail is to use existing corridors here.

Originally Posted by Horus

A Kanata commuter heading downtown would have a choice:
a)Board a DMU at Terry Fox - Exit at Bayshore and ride Confed Line downtown OR
b)Board a DMU at Terry Fox, - Ride 2 stops longer to Tremblay, and backtrack on Confed line to downtown.

If we are building a suburban rail system, you'll be using it to get downtown, not to get to the LRT. That's what your neighbourhood feeder bus service is for.

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Honestly, Bayview is not exactly "not downtown." I'm not saying it isn't barren at the moment but it's not like a quick bus hop to Rideau or Hull is somehow impossible from Bayview.

And let's be realistic, we're never getting a downtown train station again. That ship sailed long ago. With the anticipated growth at LeBreton Flats and being closer to government offices downtown and in Hull, Bayview is absolutely our one and only chance at a "downtown train station" of sorts, and has some space to work with.

With the Trillium Line trains effectively being commuter-type trains, Bayview should become a commuter rail hub since it can be accessed from both sides of the river, and can connect to Kanata and Barrhaven. It also has room to grow at the moment. Bayview should definitely be proposed as a potential commuter rail hub, and encouraged to become a reality. Again, going back to my "create a VIA subsidiary to tackle transprovincial commuter rail in the region" idea, Bayview would serve as the only realistic (if not utterly ideal) commuter collector hub. Not only will it be a destination in the future thanks to redevelopment, but it can adequately collect commuters from both sides of the river who with a single transfer can get anywhere else they might like to go.

Great post. Exactly what I envision. I disagree that we need VIA to do this. Just need to arrange sharing, like GO and VIA do in Toronto.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The problem with Kanata is that the existing rail corridors dip too far south on their way to Bayview. The only viable rail option for Kanata is to extend the LRT. (That said, and as others have mentioned, it really shouldn't go any further than Terry Fox.)

Distance is not an issue. The case for suburban rail is based on total travel time. They can have a longer bus ride and extra transfer, if the train ride offsets the added time. And for the system operator, the real benefit is the savings from not extending the LRT.

Think of Toronto. You can live in Scarborough and take 1.5 hrs to get to Union. Or live in Guelph and take 1.5 hrs to get to Union by GO Train.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

If HFR ever happens and the entire track between Smiths Falls and Ottawa is double tracked, the city could take advantage of that and run Trillium Line-style service along that track between Barrhaven (and maybe even Richmond) and Bayview by interlining it with the existing Trillium Line at the Elwood Junction.

HFR has no bearing on the Trillium line. It's up to Ottawa to double track that. And then arrange sharing with VIA. Also no guarantee that VIA intends to double track its HFR corridor. With only hourly service planned, they could just fine with passing tracks strategically placed. And everything I've read does seem to suggest they aren't interested in double tracking.

Originally Posted by roger1818

From March Rd and Carling Ave to Bayview, it is 21 km via bus and LRT (transferring at Eagleson) and 26 km via your commuter rail route, so the Commuter rail route is 24% further, meaning it's average speed would have to be 24% faster just to break even. So even ignoring that March and Carling would be a detour for most Kanata/Stittsville residents, the shorter route of the Confederation Line will make up for a lot of the extra stops for those going to/from Kanata North.

The average speed of the Confederation Line is 35 km/h. This is already exceptionally fast. And most suburban rail systems average 50+ km/h. So 24% is no real challenge.

Let's do some basic math.

21 km @ 35 kph = 36 mins for LRT

For suburban rail:

21 km + 24% = 26.04 km
7min for transfer.

To achieve the same travel time as LRT, you need an average speed of 54 kph. Easily achievable when you have only 3-4 intermediate stops.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Distance is not an issue. The case for suburban rail is based on total travel time. They can have a longer bus ride and extra transfer, if the train ride offsets the added time. And for the system operator, the real benefit is the savings from not extending the LRT.

Think of Toronto. You can live in Scarborough and take 1.5 hrs to get to Union. Or live in Guelph and take 1.5 hrs to get to Union by GO Train.

That's true, and as some of the rough calculations that I've done (and that you've done too) that extra distance becomes negligible in this case.

HFR has no bearing on the Trillium line. It's up to Ottawa to double track that. And then arrange sharing with VIA. Also no guarantee that VIA intends to double track its HFR corridor. With only hourly service planned, they could just fine with passing tracks strategically placed. And everything I've read does seem to suggest they aren't interested in double tracking.

I didn't mean double tracking should be done as part of HFR, but if the city ever considered using the VIA corridor upgrades to their advantage for some kind of Kanata-Barrhaven service, that might be a good time to do the double tracking. But, if VIA won't fully double track it, that wouldn't work anyway.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I didn't mean double tracking should be done as part of HFR, but if the city ever considered using the VIA corridor upgrades to their advantage for some kind of Kanata-Barrhaven service, that might be a good time to do the double tracking. But, if VIA won't fully double track it, that wouldn't work anyway.

What I mean is that VIA has no need for the Trillium Corridor at all, for HFR. So synergy is limited to the portions that are on VIA's tracks in the West and East.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by roger1818

From March Rd and Carling Ave to Bayview, it is 21 km via bus and LRT (transferring at Eagleson) and 26 km via your commuter rail route, so the Commuter rail route is 24% further, meaning it's average speed would have to be 24% faster just to break even. So even ignoring that March and Carling would be a detour for most Kanata/Stittsville residents, the shorter route of the Confederation Line will make up for a lot of the extra stops for those going to/from Kanata North.

A longer route at a faster average speed often takes the same amount of time as a shorter route at a slower average speed. That is why when driving from Kanata to Toronto, it usually takes about the same amount of time to take the slower but shorter (391 km) Hwy 7 as it does to take the faster but longer (444 km) 416 (see link to map below). In that case it is only 14% shorter.

https://goo.gl/maps/n1ss2aS3Dw92

Right, but there's far fewer stops in my proposal allowing the trains to reach higher speeds and likely for a slightly longer duration of time than would be possible otherwise. A study should be done before discounting it because "it doesn't follow a pre-existing route."

If the travel times are comparable (which is possible given the example you cited), and if the speed, length and intervals of trains can be effective, then we have every reason to support such a development as a complement to our transit infrastructure. This is especially true when realizing that we have that infrastructure ready and waiting, and just need some vision and political backbone to get behind it.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Great post. Exactly what I envision. I disagree that we need VIA to do this. Just need to arrange sharing, like GO and VIA do in Toronto.

Thank you! However, I disagree to an extent. Perhaps we don't need VIA, but it may be better to involve them as unlike the Toronto situation, Ottawa-Gatineau is a metro area divided by two provinces with different laws, rules, and regulations. Having a federal agency would help smooth over those bumps and hurdles.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by roger1818

From March Rd and Carling Ave to Bayview, it is 21 km via bus and LRT (transferring at Eagleson) and 26 km via your commuter rail route, so the Commuter rail route is 24% further, meaning it's average speed would have to be 24% faster just to break even. So even ignoring that March and Carling would be a detour for most Kanata/Stittsville residents, the shorter route of the Confederation Line will make up for a lot of the extra stops for those going to/from Kanata North.

A longer route at a faster average speed often takes the same amount of time as a shorter route at a slower average speed. That is why when driving from Kanata to Toronto, it usually takes about the same amount of time to take the slower but shorter (391 km) Hwy 7 as it does to take the faster but longer (444 km) 416 (see link to map below). In that case it is only 14% shorter.

https://goo.gl/maps/n1ss2aS3Dw92

And therein lies the problem with the commuter rail idea for Kanata. On paper, it appears faster due to skipping all the stops, but in practice, it's no better, due to a combination of two factors:
1) More circuitous routing than the LRT
2) More difficult last mile problems. The LRT route will go right through the centre of Kanata with easy park and ride access and local bus connections to the entirety of the area and good development potential along its route, and at the other end will connect right to the heart of the CBD and stopping at Tunney's Pasture (major employment node) along the way. By contrast the commuter rail idea has much less convenient stop locations for Kanata, harder to orient both development and local bus services around, and requires a transfer at the downtown end to get to final destinations.

The combination of these two factors makes the LRT route, even with all the stops, the faster and more practical choice for the vast majority of potential Kanata commuters.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Let's do some basic math.

21 km @ 35 kph = 36 mins for LRT

For suburban rail:

21 km + 24% = 26.04 km
7min for transfer.

To achieve the same travel time as LRT, you need an average speed of 54 kph. Easily achievable when you have only 3-4 intermediate stops.

Where did you get that 35 km/h figure from? Stage 1? It has mostly downtown stations which will have longer dwell times and thus distorts the average speed on the low end. As was just mentioned in the Confederation Line thread, it is expected that it the travel time from Trim to Moodie will be 50 minutes. I estimate that to be about 37 km with 24 intervening stations, so that works out to an average of 44 km/h. West of Moodie will be even faster as there will be 4km without any stops, so the train will easily get up to its 100km/h maximum speed.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Where did you get that 35 km/h figure from? Stage 1? It has mostly downtown stations which will have longer dwell times and thus distorts the average speed on the low end. As was just mentioned in the Confederation Line thread, it is expected that it the travel time from Trim to Moodie will be 50 minutes. I estimate that to be about 37 km with 24 intervening stations, so that works out to an average of 44 km/h. West of Moodie will be even faster as there will be 4km without any stops, so the train will easily get up to its 100km/h maximum speed.

The Trim-Moodie time also includes the eastern greenbelt segment.

But even at 44 kph average speed, these milkrun megatrams are far too slow to draw new users, or even retain bus users.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Trim-Moodie time also includes the eastern greenbelt segment.

True, but it is averaged into the entire 37 km route. Adding 6 more km to the total line length, 4 of which is in the greenbelt will increase the average speed.

On top of that, we are only measuring to Bayview. Either routing would use the slower, downtown LRT stations (due to longer dwell times and closer spaced stops), so properly they should be removed from the average.

But even at 44 kph average speed, these milkrun megatrams are far too slow to draw new users, or even retain bus users.

How long do you realistically think a commuter rail train could travel the 26 km from March Rd and Carling Ave to Bayview Station with the 8 stops Jamaican-Phoenix (the person who I was originally replying to) says there would be (at a minimum you would have to stop at Walkley, Mooney's Bay, Carleton, Gladstone, and Carling as other trains will be stopping at those.)?

The bus/LRT route would take about:

• 6 minutes by bus from Carling to March/Eagleson Station (according to the schedule for the 63, though it could be sped up by using March Rd)
• 25 minutes by LRT to travel the remaining 18 km from March/Eagleson Station to Bayview Station (assuming an average speed of 44 km/h).

For a total of 31 minutes.

That of course is assuming you would be near or passing the March/Carling station anyway. For most Kanata/Stittsville residents it would be a 6 minute detour instead.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

True, but it is averaged into the entire 37 km route. Adding 6 more km to the total line length, 4 of which is in the greenbelt will increase the average speed.

On top of that, we are only measuring to Bayview. Either routing would use the slower, downtown LRT stations (due to longer dwell times and closer spaced stops), so properly they should be removed from the average.



How long do you realistically think a commuter rail train could travel the 26 km from March Rd and Carling Ave to Bayview Station with the 8 stops Jamaican-Phoenix (the person who I was originally replying to) says there would be (at a minimum you would have to stop at Walkley, Mooney's Bay, Carleton, Gladstone, and Carling as other trains will be stopping at those.)?

The bus/LRT route would take about:

• 6 minutes by bus from Carling to March/Eagleson Station (according to the schedule for the 63, though it could be sped up by using March Rd)
• 25 minutes by LRT to travel the remaining 18 km from March/Eagleson Station to Bayview Station (assuming an average speed of 44 km/h).

For a total of 31 minutes.

That of course is assuming you would be near or passing the March/Carling station anyway. For most Kanata/Stittsville residents it would be a 6 minute detour instead.

First of all, I do not in any way, shape or form support using Bayview for any sort of commuter train hub. It was a dumb idea when Moose had it and is a dumb idea in any other configuration. If a comuter rail system were developed the most sensible terminus would be hurdman.

Speeds for a commuter rail system are hard to estimate, and depend on how much the track is upgraded, and how much planners can resist pressure to turn every piece of transportation infrastructure into a milk run.

Between Pickering and Oshawa GO trains have an average speed of 75 kph, with two intermediate stops. I think that would be a reasonable starting point.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

First of all, I do not in any way, shape or form support using Bayview for any sort of commuter train hub. It was a dumb idea when Moose had it and is a dumb idea in any other configuration. If a comuter rail system were developed the most sensible terminus would be hurdman.

Sure. I only said Bayview because that’s what Jamaican-Phoenix suggested. Either Hurdman or Tremblay would be a similar distance as Bayview but would be dependent on someone upgrading more of VIA’s track.

Speeds for a commuter rail system are hard to estimate, and depend on how much the track is upgraded, and how much planners can resist pressure to turn every piece of transportation infrastructure into a milk run.

True. History doesn’t bode well for either of these going well in Ottawa.

Between Pickering and Oshawa GO trains have an average speed of 75 kph, with two intermediate stops. I think that would be a reasonable starting point.

Pickering and Oshawa GO stations are about 18km apart and and the trip is 19 minutes so that works out to 57 km/h. Given that they have dedicated double track, it’s probably a best case scenario.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Where did you get that 35 km/h figure from?

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/the-build/vehicle/overview/

Originally Posted by roger1818

Stage 1? It has mostly downtown stations which will have longer dwell times and thus distorts the average speed on the low end. As was just mentioned in the Confederation Line thread, it is expected that it the travel time from Trim to Moodie will be 50 minutes. I estimate that to be about 37 km with 24 intervening stations, so that works out to an average of 44 km/h. West of Moodie will be even faster as there will be 4km without any stops, so the train will easily get up to its 100km/h maximum speed.

It's great if it's higher. I like to be conservative in my estimates in my discussions here.

[lrt's friend]

If we were to use the cross-town railway tracks, in a city this size, to maximize ridership, we would need to stop at every major roadway (Richmond Road, Woodroffe, Merivale, Riverside, Billings Bridge at the very least), to facilitate transfers to local destinations. Commuter rail only makes sense to more remote suburbs and depends on heavy rail and a downtown station, that no longer exists. Our remote suburbs are not large enough to make this work (to justify the investment), except possibly on existing VIA rail corridors and even then with very limited additional service. We don't see VIA jumping at this opportunity so they must realize that it is a money losing proposition.