YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Not the way Canadian airports strangely measure intl but yes by and other country's calculations YVR had 11.5% Intl+Transborder growth whereas YUL had 12.3%.

YVRs transbroder was relatively low in march at 6.0% whereas YUL had a huge month at 13.0%

As a much larger city that Vancouver, I could not understand why they (YUL) were at rank 3, just ahead of Calgary. Maybe Montreal is finally doing some catching up.

[thenoflyzone]

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air...ada-w18-long-haul-changes-as-of-07may18/

Vancouver – Delhi eff 28OCT18 winter 2018/19 sees 6 weekly for entire season with 787-9, compared to 4 weekly in W17 (7 weekly in selected periods)
Vancouver – London Heathrow 07NOV18 – 30JAN19 400-seater 777-300ER replaces 450-seater

[LeftCoaster]

^ Saw that on airlineroute this morning too, great news. hope to see it go daily year round soon. Maybe even Air India will jump into the mix

Originally Posted by trofirhen

As a much larger city that Vancouver, I could not understand why they (YUL) were at rank 3, just ahead of Calgary. Maybe Montreal is finally doing some catching up.

Montreal is actually growing slower on a total basis this year, so the gap is widening.

The two airports have had similar growth over the last several years, with YVR slightly edging out YUL in total growth since 2010 (YVR @ 44%, YUL @ 40%).

Where YUL has made significant gain is in replacing YYC as 3rd busiest airport in Canada, a title they had briefly lost.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

As a much larger city that Vancouver, I could not understand why they (YUL) were at rank 3, just ahead of Calgary. Maybe Montreal is finally doing some catching up.

I'd say historical factors such as running international flights from Mirabel airport and domestic from Dorval set Montreal's passenger growth back.

Geography also plays a part. There are very few large cities within close driving distance of Vancouver -- really only Seattle and Portland. Calgary is a 10+ hour drive. Anywhere else? Flying is basically your main option.

In contrast, from Montreal, Ottawa is 2 hours away by car. It's possible to drive from Montreal to Toronto or Boston in about 5 hours. Train service to Toronto is about the same time and is pretty price competitive. People have more travel options available than just flying.

I'm sure there are many other factors but these are the ones that come to mind.

[Lancaster]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

I'd say historical factors such as running international flights from Mirabel airport and domestic from Dorval set Montreal's passenger growth back.

Geography also plays a part. There are very few large cities within close driving distance of Vancouver -- really only Seattle and Portland. Calgary is a 10+ hour drive. Anywhere else? Flying is basically your main option.

In contrast, from Montreal, Ottawa is 2 hours away by car. It's possible to drive from Montreal to Toronto or Boston in about 5 hours. Train service to Toronto is about the same time and is pretty price competitive. People have more travel options available than just flying.

I'm sure there are many other factors but these are the ones that come to mind.

The most obvious one that sticks out to me is that up until recently your only real options were Asia-YVR-Wherever and Europe/South America/Asia-YYZ-Wherever for connections. Toronto was the east coast hub, Vancouver was the west coast. Now it appears AC is positioning YUL as Asia/Europe-YUL-East Coast. YVR is Asia/some Europe/Oceania-YVR-West Coast. YYZ is Everywhere-YYZ-Everywhere.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Lancaster

The most obvious one that sticks out to me is that up until recently your only real options were Asia-YVR-Wherever and Europe/South America/Asia-YYZ-Wherever for connections. Toronto was the east coast hub, Vancouver was the west coast. Now it appears AC is positioning YUL as Asia/Europe-YUL-East Coast. YVR is Asia/some Europe/Oceania-YVR-West Coast. YYZ is Everywhere-YYZ-Everywhere.

Yes, I think your breakdown is pretty accurate. It's sometimes difficult to keep in mind that a country so spread out georgraphically poses aviation problems and challenges.
YVR has a few year-round destinations in Europe, and lots in Asia / Oceania. YUL has a few year-round destiantions in Asia, and lots in Europe. YYZ has everything but that's rather normal.
As the biggest, wealthiest, and most influential city in the country it's only normal that YYZ would have, as you say "Everywhere-Everywhere."
It would be nice if YVR had a couple more in Europe, maybe even one or two in South America, and if YUL had one or two more in Asia. but given Canada's configuration, 'as things are' seems quite normal. Hopefully, if current trends continue, YVR and YUL will get destinations in regions traditionally not in their "catch basin." We'll have to wait and see, but I'm optimistic.

[Hot Rod]

a slight modification to:

YUL: Europe/some Asia-YUL-East Coast.
YVR: Asia/Oceania/some Europe-YVR-West Coast.
YYZ: Asia/Europe/S America-YYZ-both coasts

key modifications. YUL does not have full service to Asia, nor does YYZ (albeit more than YUL) but YVR does have full Asia/Oceania. Also, don't kid yourself - YYZ does not have everywhere, as I just mentioned YVR has more Asia and Oceania than YYZ, but it does connect to almost everywhere (hence, both coasts).

What will be intersting is to see how AC does S America and Africa. I could see YYZ getting both (if it doesn't already have), with YUL getting some Africa and maybe some S America and YVR getting some S America.

The good news is even with the supposed expansion I made out of YUL and YYZ, there's still plenty Asian/Oceania destinations (even hubs) that AC does not fly:

Bangkok, Manila, Jakarta, Singapore, Auckland, Taipei (although I think YVR-TPE exists, or will shortly), Hanoi/Saigon, Kuala Lumpur, Mombai, Dubai, Istambul to name a few. I know many of these cities are served by foreign flags to Vancouver but not on AC.

There's also the plethora cities in China: Chongqing, Chengdu, Tianjin, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Xian, Shenyang along with 2ndary cities Busan, Kaohsiung, Cebu, Perth, Kolkata.

not saying all of these are likely on AC but they are possible.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

a slight modification to:

YUL: Europe/some Asia-YUL-East Coast.
YVR: Asia/Oceania/some Europe-YVR-West Coast.
YYZ: Asia/Europe/S America-YYZ-both coasts

key modifications. YUL does not have full service to Asia, nor does YYZ (albeit more than YUL) but YVR does have full Asia/Oceania. Also, don't kid yourself - YYZ does not have everywhere, as I just mentioned YVR has more Asia and Oceania than YYZ, but it does connect to almost everywhere (hence, both coasts).

What will be intersting is to see how AC does S America and Africa. I could see YYZ getting both (if it doesn't already have), with YUL getting some Africa and maybe some S America and YVR getting some S America.

The good news is even with the supposed expansion I made out of YUL and YYZ, there's still plenty Asian/Oceania destinations (even hubs) that AC does not fly:

Bangkok, Manila, Jakarta, Singapore, Auckland, Taipei (although I think YVR-TPE exists, or will shortly), Hanoi/Saigon, Kuala Lumpur, Mombai, Dubai, Istambul to name a few. I know many of these cities are served by foreign flags to Vancouver but not on AC.

There's also the plethora cities in China: Chongqing, Chengdu, Tianjin, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Xian, Shenyang along with 2ndary cities Busan, Kaohsiung, Cebu, Perth, Kolkata.

not saying all of these are likely on AC but they are possible.

You've raised and clarified some very valid points, Hot Rod.
However, in your list at the bottom, there are some cities that are not top priority, such as KolkataHanoi/Saigon, and several others.
However, my impression is that right now there are 2 o 3 overseas airports Vancouver is hoping to get. One is Istanbul. Another is Singapore (shorter by YVR that LAX by several thousand km) and something into South America, be it Santiago, Lima, or GRU.
Funnily enough, DXB is not especially useful for YVR traffic, especially now that we have AC Delhi 5x per week round the year. DXB is 180° Longitude, straight over the pole from YVR,
so any connecions out of there are backtracking (as into Europe) or going around the world once, then some more, as With India.
With the lifting of certain Brazilian visa restrictions, a flight to São Paulo is more likely. From HK, and SE Asia to GRU it's faster through DBX, but for Nothesat Asia it's a different story.
Tokyo -YYZ GU cut right over YYZ making it the shortes route. Yet ...... because the globe is "smaller (not as "fat") in the north, the Tokyo -GRU via YVR is only 44 miles//77 km longer!!
A Tokyo São Paulo flight via YVR is quiteIn North America, I'd like to see GDL & MTY in Mexico added.
Regarding AC sarting up service on any of the routes I mentioned; I'd rather doubt it at at present or near future. There might be a few foreign tails added, but not AC, not at first.

[mezzanine]

new LH livery at YVR.



twitter

[Hourglass]

Sweet pic. Not a fan of the new LH design. The Air New Zealand livery on the other hand...

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

a slight modification to:

YUL: Europe/some Asia-YUL-East Coast.
YVR: Asia/Oceania/some Europe-YVR-West Coast.
YYZ: Asia/Europe/S America-YYZ-both coasts

key modifications. YUL does not have full service to Asia, nor does YYZ (albeit more than YUL) but YVR does have full Asia/Oceania. Also, don't kid yourself - YYZ does not have everywhere, as I just mentioned YVR has more Asia and Oceania than YYZ, but it does connect to almost everywhere (hence, both coasts).

What will be intersting is to see how AC does S America and Africa. I could see YYZ getting both (if it doesn't already have), with YUL getting some Africa and maybe some S America and YVR getting some S America.

The good news is even with the supposed expansion I made out of YUL and YYZ, there's still plenty Asian/Oceania destinations (even hubs) that AC does not fly:

Bangkok, Manila, Jakarta, Singapore, Auckland, Taipei (although I think YVR-TPE exists, or will shortly), Hanoi/Saigon, Kuala Lumpur, Mombai, Dubai, Istambul to name a few. I know many of these cities are served by foreign flags to Vancouver but not on AC.

There's also the plethora cities in China: Chongqing, Chengdu, Tianjin, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Xian, Shenyang along with 2ndary cities Busan, Kaohsiung, Cebu, Perth, Kolkata.

not saying all of these are likely on AC but they are possible.

Define full service. Silly notion really.

YYZ definitely covers East Asia pretty well, considering it's an east coast city.

Put it this way. YYZ has better service to East Asia than YVR has to Europe. As i said earlier, the "misc" category had more passengers than "europe" out of YVR in March.

As for Canada - S. America, YYZ is already king in that department. Same way YUL- (North) Africa is though to beat.

As for that list of dozen of cities at the end: Need i remind you TPAC flights are lower yielding that TATL flights. Price of oil is going up. You do the math. AC isn't going to fly 10,000 km+ flights over the Pacific to Vietnam, Thailand, or any secondary city in China, with low yielding passengers just for kicks, certainly not now.

Dont use the Chinese airlines expanding in YVR as example of what AC should do across the Pacific. The Chinese carriers are mostly government owned and get huge subsidies to prop up routes. That's not the case at AC.

Originally Posted by mezzanine

new LH livery at YVR.

It sucks.

[Hot Rod]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Define full service. Silly notion really.

YYZ definitely covers East Asia pretty well, considering it's an east coast city.

Put it this way. YYZ has better service to East Asia than YVR has to Europe. As i said earlier, the "misc" category had more passengers than "europe" out of YVR in March.

As for Canada - S. America, YYZ is already king in that department. Same way YUL- (North) Africa is though to beat.

As for that list of dozen of cities at the end: Need i remind you TPAC flights are lower yielding that TATL flights. Price of oil is going up. You do the math. AC isn't going to fly 10,000 km+ flights over the Pacific to Vietnam, Thailand, or any secondary city in China, with low yielding passengers just for kicks, certainly not now.

Dont use the Chinese airlines expanding in YVR as example of what AC should do across the Pacific. The Chinese carriers are mostly government owned and get huge subsidies to prop up routes. That's not the case at AC.



It sucks.

and that's not the case in Europe or Africa with carriers flying into YYZ or YUL? Yet is used to make business case for AC to those destinations. ....

Look - dont whet your shorts, I was responding to lancaster's post where he wrote: "AC is positioning YUL as Asia/Europe-YUL-East Coast. YVR is Asia/some Europe/Oceania-YVR-West Coast. YYZ is Everywhere-YYZ-Everywhere." Let me clarify. ...

If you read my post, you would see I was responding to the correlation he was making with YUL having 'Asia/Europe' then YVR having 'Asia/Some Europe. There is an inconsistency in that statement because YUL does not have the same Asia as YVR yet was written the same; yet YVR clearly doesn't have the same Europe as YUL but he used Some Europe for YVR. Consistency would dictate he should have used Europe/some Asia to describe YUL in the same manner that he correctly described Asia/some Europe for YVR.

Hence, I would rewrite the statement - correctly- as YUL: Europe/some Asia-YUL-East Coast and YVR: Asia/Oceania/some Europe-YVR-West Coast.

As for the term Full Service, I was meaning that to describe a full slate of destinations for said continent. YUL has full Europe (Canadian standard offering) yet YVR has full Asia. Semantics, yes but my revision better reflects reality which is YVR is the King of Asia/Oceania and that isn't changing.

I also thought he gave Toronto a pass on the Everywhere to Everywhere statement. YYZ does not offer the same Asia as YVR on AIR CANADA so this statement is also not true. I would write it as Europe/S America/most Asia - YYZ - Both Coasts as this is the more clear representation comparing the big 3. To use your own notion, YVR covers Europe pretty well for a West Coast city - particularly if you consider foreign flag carriers in the same way that you MUST be considering YUL having E Asia coverage.....

Truth is: You're trying to make YUL into this super connecting hub downplaying YVR any chance - you might very well get away with it on the Canada Airport forum which is dominated by YUL cheerleaders such as yourself but expect a dose of reality especially if/when you post on the YVR page.

[Hot Rod]

Trof;

great points, as usual. But I did want to respond to a few that i threw out as goals for YVR. Most of them that aren't connecting or * or Skyteam hubs are future. That is true for DBX, I am certainly not recommending we go after that airport given the immature nature of flights we have. However, once things mature I do think all major world cities should work to have connections and that goes for DBX and YVR too. Much later, but still a goal in the future.

[Klazu]

Count me in the haters of the new Lufthansa livery. The old one had unique colors, was instantly recognizable and was elegant. The new one is so meh. Bad change just for the sake of change.

The new Air Canada livery on the other hand grown on me.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

Truth is: You're trying to make YUL into this super connecting hub downplaying YVR any chance - you might very well get away with it on the Canada Airport forum which is dominated by YUL cheerleaders such as yourself but expect a dose of reality especially if/when you post on the YVR page.

Out of everything I wrote, that's what you got? Wow. What a vivid sense of imagination you have. You need to step away from the tail pipe of your hot rod for a second, and smell some fresh air.....

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Count me in the haters of the new Lufthansa livery. The old one had unique colors, was instantly recognizable and was elegant. The new one is so meh. Bad change just for the sake of change.

The new Air Canada livery on the other hand grown on me.

I always linked the dark blue with gold lettering with the former Lufthasa planes, too. Alors que the new Air Canada color scheme, IMO, is crisp and businesslike, white with black trim.

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Out of everything I wrote, that's what you got? Wow. What a vivid sense of imagination you have. You need to step away from the tail pipe of your hot rod for a second, and smell some fresh air.....

If I may: I think that what Hot Rod's reference, at least in part, is:: the imbalance between what YUL gets for Asia and Europe, and what YVR does NOT get in Europe.

[Lancaster]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

and that's not the case in Europe or Africa with carriers flying into YYZ or YUL? Yet is used to make business case for AC to those destinations. ....

Look - dont whet your shorts, I was responding to lancaster's post where he wrote: "AC is positioning YUL as Asia/Europe-YUL-East Coast. YVR is Asia/some Europe/Oceania-YVR-West Coast. YYZ is Everywhere-YYZ-Everywhere." Let me clarify. ...

If you read my post, you would see I was responding to the correlation he was making with YUL having 'Asia/Europe' then YVR having 'Asia/Some Europe. There is an inconsistency in that statement because YUL does not have the same Asia as YVR yet was written the same; yet YVR clearly doesn't have the same Europe as YUL but he used Some Europe for YVR. Consistency would dictate he should have used Europe/some Asia to describe YUL in the same manner that he correctly described Asia/some Europe for YVR.

Hence, I would rewrite the statement - correctly- as YUL: Europe/some Asia-YUL-East Coast and YVR: Asia/Oceania/some Europe-YVR-West Coast.

As for the term Full Service, I was meaning that to describe a full slate of destinations for said continent. YUL has full Europe (Canadian standard offering) yet YVR has full Asia. Semantics, yes but my revision better reflects reality which is YVR is the King of Asia/Oceania and that isn't changing.

I also thought he gave Toronto a pass on the Everywhere to Everywhere statement. YYZ does not offer the same Asia as YVR on AIR CANADA so this statement is also not true. I would write it as Europe/S America/most Asia - YYZ - Both Coasts as this is the more clear representation comparing the big 3. To use your own notion, YVR covers Europe pretty well for a West Coast city - particularly if you consider foreign flag carriers in the same way that you MUST be considering YUL having E Asia coverage.....

I intentionally left "some" out of the statement on YUL with regards to Asia. If you look at the asian destinations that mainline AC offers from YVR...
HKG (YYZ)
PEK (YYZ, YUL on CA (accounting for expected JV))
PVG (YYZ, YUL)
NRT (YYZ, YUL)
ICN (YYZ)
TPE

And then look at european destinations that mainline AC offers from YUL...
BRU
FRA (YYZ, YVR)
GVA (YYZ)
LYS
CDG (YYZ, YVR)
FCO (YYZ)
DUB (YYZ)
KEF

YUL has more fingers in YVR's 'Asia' cookie jar than YVR has in YUL's 'Europe'. And in both cases, YYZ is all over each airports "strengths". Whatever. I could not care less if YUL gets just as many asian services as YVR so long as the journey time for the passenger is the shortest. It makes zero sense for a passenger to fly NRT-YVR-BOS if a NRT-YUL-BOS ticket is available. If AC can do it profitably then it's only better for Canadians. However, I only get upset if AC strategized connecting passengers NRT-YUL-SFO instead of NRT-YVR-SFO.

Truth is: You're trying to make YUL into this super connecting hub downplaying YVR any chance - you might very well get away with it on the Canada Airport forum which is dominated by YUL cheerleaders such as yourself but expect a dose of reality especially if/when you post on the YVR page.

That was a totally unnecessary drive-by.

[trofirhen]

I think size has a lot to do with it. YYZ metro: nearly 7 million, YUL metro 4+ million, YVR metro 2.5 million.
When the O&D numbers grow in Vancouver, then hopefully we'll get some more year-round 'Europe Cookies.'
(I have to admit though, YUL seems to get a better overall destination roster than YVR, even if adjusting for city market size).

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

There's also the plethora cities in China: Chongqing, Chengdu, Tianjin, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Xian, Shenyang along with 2ndary cities Busan, Kaohsiung, Cebu, Perth, Kolkata.

not saying all of these are likely on AC but they are possible.

AC seems content with codeshares to NKG, SZX, XMN and CGO. That should tell you all you need to know about AC and it's intentions as far as secondary Chinese destinations go.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air...ands-air-china-codeshares-from-may-2018/

Air Canada earlier this month expanded codeshare partnership with Air China, which sees AC-coded flight numbers being placed on additional domestic China routes operated by the latter. Following new codeshare routes went into effect on (or earlier) 07MAY18.

Air Canada operated by Air China
Beijing – Nanjing
Beijing – Shenzhen
Beijing – Xiamen
Beijing – Zhengzhou

Ouside of CAN, i don't see AC launching any other destination in China. Even CAN is a long shot, as the only Star carrier from Europe or North America that flies there is TK. And if AC does launch it, it will probably be YYZ-CAN, and not YVR.

AC wants more slots at Beijing and Shanghai. That's all they want.

SIN and AKL are logically next in line, as far as Asia/Oceania destinations go for AC out of YVR.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Ouside of CAN, i don't see AC launching any other destination in China. Even CAN is a long shot, as the only Star carrier from Europe or North America that flies there is TK. And if AC does launch it, it will probably be YYZ-CAN, and not YVR.

AC wants more slots at Beijing and Shanghai. That's all they want.

SIN and AKL are logically next in line, as far as Asia/Oceania destinations go for AC out of YVR.

I'd agree with all of this, especially with the last dreamliners coming in there aren't a ton of new frames to open up new routes.

Changes I see for YVR are Melbourne going daily, new service to Singapore, and potentially a route to AKL, though I could see them just allowing their *A partner to handle it.

Also, highly doubt AC would go to CAN out of YYZ. If anything it would be YVR but I don't see either happening.