Rural Commuter Rail

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Horus

Taking the land development revenues out of the MOOSE model would make a similar rail network purely dependent on ridership revenue. I'm not sure how that would be feasible in this area as there are not any large population centres near Ottawa that could or should be reasonably served by commuter rail.

I had posted this some time ago in this thread comparing the proposed MOOSE-serviced centres to some of those served by GO.

I don't see how my suggestion takes away from that business model, though?

The idea is to create a VIA subsidiary that operates and manages the track. After all, at least two of these routes would run through what are already VIA Rail routes (Smiths Falls and Alexandria). If Casselman and other villages/towns want to create their own station, that's still their prerogative. TOD can still occur around stations wherever they may be.

You also seem to have forgotten that it won't just be people from outside the city limits who would ride this; it would also be people from the suburbs who will use it as an affordable means of rapid transit to key parts of the city. This would efficiently bring in people from Kanata, Barrhaven, and Bells Corners. This would also apply to a line or two on the Quebec side of the river.

Sure, the small towns may be the terminus, but they aren't strictly the sole target. This would collect a lot of suburban traffic as well. Why be a suburbanite in Kanata or Barrhaven and have to waste 40+ minutes in traffic each direction when a single transfer reliably gets you reliably to where you need to go in half that time? The towns are the terminus, but the suburbs are the actual target.

[Truenorth00]

The populations don't justify regional rail at all. It's why Moose had to come up with their ridiculous sprawl on steroids model to pay for rail. What these communities need is a regional bus service. Like the GO bus in Toronto. With some more frequencies.

Build some key regional bus hubs at LRT stations that are close to the highways. Tremblay in the East. Bayshore in the West. Baseline (via the Transitway) and Bowesville as the Southbound terminii. Run hourly coach bus services to all these towns from these stations. That would do more for these towns than a few trains per day ever could.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The populations don't justify regional rail at all. It's why Moose had to come up with their ridiculous sprawl on steroids model to pay for rail. What these communities need is a regional bus service. Like the GO bus in Toronto. With some more frequencies.

Build some key regional bus hubs at LRT stations that are close to the highways. Tremblay in the East. Bayshore in the West. Baseline (via the Transitway) and Bowesville as the Southbound terminii. Run hourly coach bus services to all these towns from these stations. That would do more for these towns than a few trains per day ever could.

That's a very good idea. I wonder why MOOSE doesn't try that first?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

That's a very good idea. I wonder why MOOSE doesn't try that first?

Because MOOSE is somewhere between real estate to investor scam using rail as their hook. They don't actually care about offering effective transportation to those communities.

It's kinda sad that they've also hoodwinked many communities into supporting them, so the alternatives of a regional bus system aren't being considered.

It's a bloody obvious solution. What benefits you more, a handful of trains a day with Moose (with most of that biased towards commuting hours probably) or an hourly bus service right to a Confederation or Trillium Line station?

Looking at Moose's eastern service for example.

Run a bus for Navan from Blair and maybe a direct bus to Alexandria from Tremblay. The rest:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tremblay...8edeb!2m2!1d-74.6367158!2d45.3111798!3e0

It's 48 mins road time till Casselman from Tremblay. That means maybe an hour with stops. Transfer at Tremblay and downtown within 1 hr and 15 min.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Because MOOSE is somewhere between real estate to investor scam using rail as their hook. They don't actually care about offering effective transportation to those communities.

It's kinda sad that they've also hoodwinked many communities into supporting them, so the alternatives of a regional bus system aren't being considered.

It's a bloody obvious solution. What benefits you more, a handful of trains a day with Moose (with most of that biased towards commuting hours probably) or an hourly bus service right to a Confederation or Trillium Line station?

Looking at Moose's eastern service for example.

Run a bus for Navan from Blair and maybe a direct bus to Alexandria from Tremblay. The rest:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tremblay...8edeb!2m2!1d-74.6367158!2d45.3111798!3e0

It's 48 mins road time till Casselman from Tremblay. That means maybe an hour with stops. Transfer at Tremblay and downtown within 1 hr and 15 min.

I like your idea way better

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I like your idea way better

I would love rail using DMUs. If the costs to build proper track capacity and stations was in line with those population levels. Moose's plans though are just ridiculous and predicated on building massive sprawling exurbs, with the whole scammy element of "property powered rail".

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I would love rail using DMUs. If the costs to build proper track capacity and stations was in line with those population levels. Moose's plans though are just ridiculous and predicated on building massive sprawling exurbs, with the whole scammy element of "property powered rail".

MOOSE's proposal actually involves densification around existing communities. The main concern i've seen raised is that this would lead others to build sprawling exurbs around those communities.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

MOOSE's proposal actually involves densification around existing communities. The main concern i've seen raised is that this would lead others to build sprawling exurbs around those communities.

Their catchment was under 1km around the stations. That's nothing. What you'll get are all those folks who want acre plots moving out there. I see no reason why Ottawa should facilitate this.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Their catchment was under 1km around the stations. That's nothing. What you'll get are all those folks who want acre plots moving out there. I see no reason why Ottawa should facilitate this.

That's basically exactly what I said?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Their catchment was under 1km around the stations. That's nothing. What you'll get are all those folks who want acre plots moving out there. I see no reason why Ottawa should facilitate this.

Provincial planning rules make that kind of sprawl difficult in today's times. There's a reason why most of those sprawling huge lot "country estate" type of subdivisions are not being built anymore.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

MOOSE's proposal actually involves densification around existing communities. The main concern i've seen raised is that this would lead others to build sprawling exurbs around those communities.

It wont happen. The populations they want to serve are far too small to start a rail business.

Hourly bus Service can be justified but hourly Rail would not be. They are just trying to find a way to stick taxpayers with the bill.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

It wont happen. The populations they want to serve are far too small to start a rail business.

Yeah. Their biggest issue is and always has been securing funding. Hard to do on a plan like that..

They are just trying to find a way to stick taxpayers with the bill.

Not sure where you got that idea from.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Yeah. Their biggest issue is and always has been securing funding. Hard to do on a plan like that..



Not sure where you got that idea from.

They already stated that when they have to build tracks around the new Bayview station they want city taxpayers to pay for it.

Also their whole business plan is based on that (property powered rail=property tax)

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

They already stated that when they have to build tracks around the new Bayview station they want city taxpayers to pay for it.

To be fair, the city did that to themselves by messing up the clearances at Bayview Station. It's the only instance of MOOSE asking for public money. That also doesn't take into consideration the millions of dollars of other upgrades that they would implement (assuming they ever get the funding and approval of course). There's a trade off there.

Also their whole business plan is based on that (property powered rail=property tax)

But a private property tax is different from taxpayers in general.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The populations don't justify regional rail at all. It's why Moose had to come up with their ridiculous sprawl on steroids model to pay for rail. What these communities need is a regional bus service. Like the GO bus in Toronto. With some more frequencies.

Build some key regional bus hubs at LRT stations that are close to the highways. Tremblay in the East. Bayshore in the West. Baseline (via the Transitway) and Bowesville as the Southbound terminii. Run hourly coach bus services to all these towns from these stations. That would do more for these towns than a few trains per day ever could.

The rural towns each has its own commuter bus system, with varying degrees of service. I agree that it should be standardized and funded by the province like Ontario does for Toronto's remote suburbs. One advantage of standardization is one bus could potentially serve multiple communities (for example, the bus to Carleton Place could have some runs extend to either Perth or Smiths Falls.

As for the option of switching to rail with DMUs, that is something we could work towards using active rail lines. The one that jumps out at me is Smiths Falls as the rail route would be significantly shorter and faster than a bus route would be. It would rely on the the line being double tracked though. That is something VIA might do anyway for HFR if they end up having trains to both Toronto and Kingston run along it. Once double tracked, capacity would not be an issue at all (double tracking more than doubles capacity).

[acottawa]

I'm not really clear what the federal interest is here. For the objective of providing commuter services to outside-the-greenbelt suburbs, the City of Ottawa has made it clear that it thinks the best way to serve places like Kanata is with future LRT extensions. If residents of Kanata and Barrhaven disagree with this approach and would prefer a commuter rail system (which is now most cities connect suburbs of that distance) then they should take it up with their city councilors.

For the other objective of encouraging more sprawl and encouraging people to commute from farther away I am not clear why the federal government would want to encourage this. It certainly runs counter to its stated goals of reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm not really clear what the federal interest is here. For the objective of providing commuter services to outside-the-greenbelt suburbs, the City of Ottawa has made it clear that it thinks the best way to serve places like Kanata is with future LRT extensions. If residents of Kanata and Barrhaven disagree with this approach and would prefer a commuter rail system (which is now most cities connect suburbs of that distance) then they should take it up with their city councilors.

Well, a federal crown corporation already manages and runs trains along the existing rail corridors in this area. Also, once you start considering the Quebec side of the river (since this is the National Capital Region) it becomes a federal thing anyway.

The city obviously has no interest in running any kind of train between Barrhaven and the rest of Ottawa via the existing rail right of way for dozens of reasons, but that's not a reason to say that no one else should.

For the other objective of encouraging more sprawl and encouraging people to commute from farther away I am not clear why the federal government would want to encourage this. It certainly runs counter to its stated goals of reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

You make them reliant on trains. If a majority of people living in these communities took the train instead of driving (which isn't the case in areas like the GTA), then you would actually be reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

You make them reliant on trains. If a majority of people living in these communities took the train instead of driving (which isn't the case in areas like the GTA), then you would actually be reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

There are too few existing commuters to support any kind of regular train service, so the only way to get any sort of ridership would be to encourage tens of thousands of people to relocate to rural areas.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

To be fair, the city did that to themselves by messing up the clearances at Bayview Station. It's the only instance of MOOSE asking for public money. That also doesn't take into consideration the millions of dollars of other upgrades that they would implement (assuming they ever get the funding and approval of course). There's a trade off there.


But a private property tax is different from taxpayers in general.

Ive taken a look at their website and the way they implement their property powered rail is the same thing as a property tax. Just because they gave it a different fancy name doesn't mean its not a property tax There is no other way for them to finance this since the ridership wont cover the cost to operate or even cover the capital costs of Trains that they are proposing.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Ive taken a look at their website and the way they implement their property powered rail is the same thing as a property tax. Just because they gave it a different fancy name doesn't mean its not a property tax There is no other way for them to finance this since the ridership wont cover the cost to operate or even cover the capital costs of Trains that they are proposing.

Yes, all of those things have been made pretty clear throughout the history of this thread.
My point is that there's a distinction between MOOSE's imposed tax, and public tax money. MOOSE isn't asking for public tax money (aside from the Bayview bypass) and their private tax is only applied on buildings in regions that "subscribe" to their service, or that are built by their partners.

You and I as public taxpayers wouldn't be paying for any of MOOSE's plan.