Halifax Active Transportation

[MonctonRad]

Well here are some stats to warm the cockles of Keith's heart.

The current CTV Atlantic poll is on active transportation in Halifax (spurred on by recent spending on dedicated bicycle infrastructure).

How often do you use a bicycle for transportation?

(A) - All the time, I try to bike as often as I can (44 votes - 3%)
(B) - Sometimes, when it is convenient to do so (38 votes - 3%)
(C) - I mostly use a bike for recreational purposes (259 votes - 20%)
(D) - I never use a bicycle (975 votes - 74%)

It would appear that Keith is firmly in the majority on this issue.........

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It would appear that Keith is firmly in the majority on this issue.........

This is the wrong way to think about transportation infrastructure though. Different modes work for different trips and different people (some people can't cycle, some can't walk, some can't drive), and building infrastructure to support these trips can have wildly different costs.

The Halifax cycling coalition's goal for example is for $2M a year to get spent on cycling infrastructure. This works out to about 1% of total transportation spending. Meanwhile there are single highway interchanges in Halifax that cost more than the city has spent in total over decades on cycling infrastructure. Halifax averages well under 1% per year spent on cycling infrastructure.

If the city spends 1% on infrastructure that can be used for 5% of trips this is a really good investment. I think a lot of the simple cycling infrastructure on the peninsula (signalling and signage improvements, lanes on existing roads) falls into this category. The bike lanes can even be good for drivers since they concentrate the cyclists along certain corridors with good lane markings/separation and signalling instead of mixing traffic everywhere (something drivers tend to complain about).

The same thing goes for infrastructure that is only seasonally useful. So what if people mostly only cycle from April-November? This could mean that 2/3 of the time there is less car traffic, which is not as good as having less car traffic 100% of the time but is much better than 0%.

[Keith P.]

But when you throw in a frivolous $10 million bike flyover ramp off the MacDonald Bridge logic goes out the window.

Despite the overblown claims of the HCC I cannot see a financial case for any cycling infrastructure here. The zealots will cycle without it but as we see, the vast majority never will. The mushy middle may buy a bike because it is trendy but most will soon abandon it when the next trendy thing comes along.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is the wrong way to think about transportation infrastructure though. Different modes work for different trips and different people (some people can't cycle, some can't walk, some can't drive), and building infrastructure to support these trips can have wildly different costs....

True, but equally important is that it doesn't make sense to ask people what they're currently doing or expect that they'll do based on current conditions and habits and assume that this will remain static when trying to plan for the future. We know fair well that what habits and customs cause some behavioural inertia, people's behaviour is strongly influenced by the conditions around them and the options they're presented with and that when the conditions change, behaviour shifts along with it.

[atbw]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

True, but equally important is that it doesn't make sense to ask people what they're currently doing or expect that they'll do based on current conditions and habits and assume that this will remain static when trying to plan for the future. We know fair well that what habits and customs cause some behavioural inertia, people's behaviour is strongly influenced by the conditions around them and the options they're presented with and that when the conditions change, behaviour shifts along with it.

I'm curious to see what the "I would bike if I felt safe doing so" vote would be. Car-like biking in the street, sharing the road and being treated like a car is not for everyone.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by atbw

I'm curious to see what the "I would bike if I felt safe doing so" vote would be. Car-like biking in the street, sharing the road and being treated like a car is not for everyone.

When I lived in Halifax, I regularly biked to work. The unsafe part are the other drivers trying to kill me. I have less problems with killer drivers in Toronto than in Halifax.

[Dartguard]

I have to agree with Keith on this one folks. If the city agrees to build the Gucci Bridge off the Bridge then we all have to ask where does it end. We can ALL think of a far better use for seven Million in public funds. A Gucci bridge is not my choice. More Express Buses, Commuter Rail or a Fast Ferry from Bedford would be a far better use of Seven Mill. There is only one taxpayer no matter how much our respective governments spend.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

When I lived in Halifax, I regularly biked to work. The unsafe part are the other drivers trying to kill me. I have less problems with killer drivers in Toronto than in Halifax.

I'm curious. What makes the difference for you between Toronto and Halifax?

Is it the courtesy/skill level/attentiveness of the drivers or the infrastructure differences?

I don't have a great impression of Toronto drivers but I'm not aware of their cycling infrastructure over and above the fact that much of Halifax is older and thus has narrower streets and some layout challenges.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

I have to agree with Keith on this one folks. If the city agrees to build the Gucci Bridge off the Bridge then we all have to ask where does it end. We can ALL think of a far better use for seven Million in public funds. A Gucci bridge is not my choice. More Express Buses, Commuter Rail or a Fast Ferry from Bedford would be a far better use of Seven Mill. There is only one taxpayer no matter how much our respective governments spend.

I must say I have to agree with you that I would prefer to have any of those items you listed vs a 7 mill flyover ramp. However maybe it's necessary to address a safety issue?

Have there been any incidents at that location that would help justify its expenditure?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I'm curious. What makes the difference for you between Toronto and Halifax?

Is it the courtesy/skill level/attentiveness of the drivers or the infrastructure differences?

I don't have a great impression of Toronto drivers but I'm not aware of their cycling infrastructure over and above the fact that much of Halifax is older and thus has narrower streets and some layout challenges.

I feel it is because in a place like Toronto, drivers have many distractions they must be aware of. Whether it be jaywalkers, idiot cabbies, streetcars or cyclists. Add to that that there is much more traffic so there is more cars slowing down the city. For a city that has relatively little infrastructure, Toronto is a decent place to ride.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I'm curious. What makes the difference for you between Toronto and Halifax?

Is it the courtesy/skill level/attentiveness of the drivers or the infrastructure differences?

It's overwhemingly an ability and knowledge of how to drive with cyclists on the road (attentiveness). As a driver growing up in the Maritimes I could count on one hand the number of times I ever drove near or around a cyclist in an urban environment. People in larger cities like Toronto are simply more used to providing space and sharing intersections with cyclists and to a lesser extent pedestrians. In larger cities you're also likely to be driving at slower speeds due to traffic on urban streets.

I take great issue with the CTV Atlantic polls for the simple reason that they're nowhere near being an accurate sampling of the public as a whole.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I feel it is because in a place like Toronto, drivers have many distractions they must be aware of. Whether it be jaywalkers, idiot cabbies, streetcars or cyclists. Add to that that there is much more traffic so there is more cars slowing down the city. For a city that has relatively little infrastructure, Toronto is a decent place to ride.

Thanks for sharing your insight and answering my question!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's overwhemingly an ability and knowledge of how to drive with cyclists on the road (attentiveness). As a driver growing up in the Maritimes I could count on one hand the number of times I ever drove near or around a cyclist in an urban environment. People in larger cities like Toronto are simply more used to providing space and sharing intersections with cyclists and to a lesser extent pedestrians. In larger cities you're also likely to be driving at slower speeds due to traffic on urban streets.

I take great issue with the CTV Atlantic polls for the simple reason that they're nowhere near being an accurate sampling of the public as a whole.

I think in general all on-line surveys should be taken with a grain of salt, as there is no associated data regarding demographics, etc.

That said, though, such overwhelming results probably do indicate a trend of some sort and can be backed up anecdotally by casual observations (i.e. we see very many cars on the road vs very few bicycles in our day-to-day). Even if the web poll results are off by 20% there is still a large majority that only rides recreationally or not at all).

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/more/poll-results

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks for sharing your insight and answering my question!

Not a problem.

Having lived in several places in my life, I have witnessed the challenges. Too many people do not have that kind of insight as to other places. Some think any form of cycling infrastructure is bad, where as some see it as a net benefit. I drive, I cycle, and I walk. I want infrastructure for all of those modes, not just one. And I want good transit so that I can also have that option too.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think in general all on-line surveys should be taken with a grain of salt, as there is no associated data regarding demographics, etc.

That said, though, such overwhelming results probably do indicate a trend of some sort and can be backed up anecdotally by casual observations (i.e. we see very many cars on the road vs very few bicycles in our day-to-day). Even if the web poll results are off by 20% there is still a large majority that only rides recreationally or not at all).

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/more/poll-results

So, how can you change those numbers? How do you get more riders? Infrastructure.

It's not rocket surgery.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, how can you change those numbers? How do you get more riders? Infrastructure.

It's not rocket surgery.

To change the numbers, certainly infrastructure can make it more attractive, convenient and safe, but I don't think it's the complete story.

I think there also has to be a change in culture, which will happen organically to a certain extent, but perhaps also has to be promoted in a positive manner. The health benefits and potential enjoyment aspects would be a good place to start, but overall it must be promoted to become part of mainstream culture where people are introduced to the activity from a young age and it becomes the norm rather than the outlier. And, of course, infrastructure will go a long way to facilitate that change.

I think that the cycling community is still veiled by a cloud of negativity, and is viewed by many people as being an exclusive club giving the finger to mainstream society. I know it's not that way, mostly, but the more vocal and vigilante-types give the impression that the group is angry at the world and won't stop until it has its own way. That has a place in affecting change, for sure, but it doesn't make one feel all warm and fuzzy, and motivated to join the group. IMHO.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

To change the numbers, certainly infrastructure can make it more attractive, convenient and safe, but I don't think it's the complete story.

I think there also has to be a change in culture, which will happen organically to a certain extent, but perhaps also has to be promoted in a positive manner. The health benefits and potential enjoyment aspects would be a good place to start, but overall it must be promoted to become part of mainstream culture where people are introduced to the activity from a young age and it becomes the norm rather than the outlier. And, of course, infrastructure will go a long way to facilitate that change.

I think that the cycling community is still veiled by a cloud of negativity, and is viewed by many people as being an exclusive club giving the finger to mainstream society. I know it's not that way, mostly, but the more vocal and vigilante-types give the impression that the group is angry at the world and won't stop until it has its own way. That has a place in affecting change, for sure, but it doesn't make one feel all warm and fuzzy, and motivated to join the group. IMHO.

Its not a veil of negativity but a swoosh of entitlement that the local cycling community seems to exhibit in their day to day meanderings in this city. I have a greater trepidation driving beside a cyclist in this City than I do a 53 foot container trailer bouncing down Hollis. I truly never know what a cyclist is going to do. I drive about 45,000 km's per year for work all over the Maritimes and cyclists really are an unpredictable addition to the traffic flow.
It seems strange in a society that has agreed to share the medical expenses of every citizen that we allow a VERY small, yet vocal minority to treat City streets like they are driving the 53 Foot Container tractor.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Its not a veil of negativity but a swoosh of entitlement that the local cycling community seems to exhibit in their day to day meanderings in this city. I have a greater trepidation driving beside a cyclist in this City than I do a 53 foot container trailer bouncing down Hollis. I truly never know what a cyclist is going to do. I drive about 45,000 km's per year for work all over the Maritimes and cyclists really are an unpredictable addition to the traffic flow.
It seems strange in a society that has agreed to share the medical expenses of every citizen that we allow a VERY small, yet vocal minority to treat City streets like they are driving the 53 Foot Container tractor.

To hear that you drive in fear next to a cyclist is a good thing. Your vehicle, even a 1500lb smart car will KILL a cyclist.

As a cyclist, I treat every car as a killer. I expect them to drive over me. I have even been hit a few times. I keep close to the curb/shoulder at all times. I signal. In some provinces, like here in Ontario, I am entitled to the entire lane. So, drivers must give me the full lane.

As a driver, I am on the lookout for cyclists. I keep back and give them a wide berth. I know my 2500lb truck will kill them. I have yet to be in a collision with a cyclist.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I must say I have to agree with you that I would prefer to have any of those items you listed vs a 7 mill flyover ramp. However maybe it's necessary to address a safety issue?

Have there been any incidents at that location that would help justify its expenditure?

Nope.

The HCC threw a tantrum to get Mason to jam this through because their members didn't like having to ride uphill from the admittedly terribly-designed existing setup, and didn't want to have to use the much more logical and responsible solution which was a crossing signal at the end of the bridge like that used for pedestrians. It was his way of giving the Italian salute to motorists, whom he seems to hate.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Its not a veil of negativity but a swoosh of entitlement that the local cycling community seems to exhibit in their day to day meanderings in this city. I have a greater trepidation driving beside a cyclist in this City than I do a 53 foot container trailer bouncing down Hollis. I truly never know what a cyclist is going to do. I drive about 45,000 km's per year for work all over the Maritimes and cyclists really are an unpredictable addition to the traffic flow.
It seems strange in a society that has agreed to share the medical expenses of every citizen that we allow a VERY small, yet vocal minority to treat City streets like they are driving the 53 Foot Container tractor.

It perplexes me a little that there is no training required to ride a bicycle on the street. All you have to do is make sure you have a helmet on and a headlight if you're riding at night. There is also no requirement to register bicycles to provide a method of identification (i.e. licence plate), so basically cyclists are expected to ride on the street and obey traffic laws (and keep themselves from being injured or killed) but have no training requirement. So essentially they have no more responsibility than pedestrians, yet they are riding in traffic.

They are also not required to carry insurance, so if a cyclist runs over a pedestrian (it happens), they are not required to be insured to cover the victim's medical expenses or really carry any responsibility at all. Maybe they'll get a ticket for a negligible amount but that's it. There is no license to take away from them, so they can jump right back on their bike and do it all over again (though it would be foolhardy to do so for obvious reasons).

The training is the big thing for me, though. As a car driver, when I used to cycle I understood the rules of the road and the limitations of driving a car or large truck (especially maneuverability, blind spots and braking distances), so I rode accordingly and did what I had to do to attempt to avoid being killed. I covered hundreds and hundreds of kilometers on my bike and never had an incident with a car. There were some close calls, but usually I was able to predict what the car was about to do, through my driver training and driving experience.

Conversely, and rightfully so IMHO, there are laws that require motorists to take care of bicyclists by giving them 1m clearance, etc. It's a good thing as it's easy to kill or seriously injure a cyclist or pedestrian with 3000+ lbs of car, but at the same time it puts all the responsibility on the car driver as the bicyclist is not really responsible for looking out for their own safety (even though it's in their best interest to do so).

It's really a disservice to cyclists to not require them to have training and pass at least some basic testing to prove they have the knowledge and skills to safely cycle on the same road as cars and large trucks. Ignorance is definitely not bliss, especially in this case.