West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[lrt's friend]

What about using the old Hull Electric right of way (Boulevard Lucerne), which looks pretty well intact all the way to Rue Principale in Aylmer, with extra space much of the way beyond the current road bed itself.

[agl]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What about using the old Hull Electric right of way (Boulevard Lucerne), which looks pretty well intact all the way to Rue Principale in Aylmer, with extra space much of the way beyond the current road bed itself.

While it would be direct and speedy, we would be mimicking OLRT's Stage 2 route along the SJAM Parkway in terms of little to no ridership potential on one side, and being at the edge rather than heart of the neighbourhoods it passes on the other side.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What about using the old Hull Electric right of way (Boulevard Lucerne), which looks pretty well intact all the way to Rue Principale in Aylmer, with extra space much of the way beyond the current road bed itself.

I suggested that once to friends who live one house "in" from that precious linear park, and they looked at me as if I'd asked to marry their dog.

[agl]

Well 2029 sure came pretty quick: Plans unveiled for urban village in the Plateau:

Plans dévoilés pour un «village urbain» du Plateau

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/gatin...plateau-08979b913a69ad47a79b3287da95c463



Not the same density as proposed for Ambassade Champlain on Taché, but a good start.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

There's not actually much greenfield left in the Plateau. What little isn't already under construction is slated to be within the next few years. Everything south of Allumettières in the Plateau is NCC parkland and the largest parcel of yet-undeveloped land is also a park. There's the land south of the highway between Vanier and Samuel-Eddy and potentially the redevelopment of the Smart Centre in the Plateau.

Chemin d'Aylmer, as has been pointed out, has a number of barely-profitable golf courses which could be redeveloped as well as the declining Galeries area.

The point is that Allumettières is no longer the greenfield paradise it was even 10-15 years ago and it will be almost completely built up in difficult-to-upzone suburban development by time LRT is completed sometime in the late 2020s. In this regard, Chemin d'Aylmer actually provides some interesting advantages since the developable parcels are by and large not yet planned, which means that they could be planned and built around LRT in the 2020s instead of trying to shoe-horn transit in.
The old commercial building stock around the Galeries is also advantageous since its relatively low value makes it ripe for a rebuild, whereas the still-successful Smart Centre doesn't have the same incentive since it's already doing well as it is and will likely continue to do so for years to come.

Fill disclosure here, given that I will rarely if ever use this LRT, I really don't have any skin in the game for either route. I just want what is best for the region.

I do tend to agree with you on this though. I see lots of opportunity for development along Aylmer Rd, both greenfield and old developments that could be redeveloped (there seem to be a lot of single family homes on oversized lots that could be easily acquired by a developer). Recently built single family homes on postage stamp sized lots are much harder to redevelop to increase density.

I also find it curious that the proponents of the northern route are all over the fact that the southern route goes past about 2 km of golf courses, that may or may not be developed one day, but don't say boo about the 1.5 km of Gatineau Park that the northern route has to travel through, which will never be developed.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I also find it curious that the proponents of the northern route are all over the fact that the southern route goes past about 2 km of golf courses, that may or may not be developed one day, but don't say boo about the 1.5 km of Gatineau Park that the northern route has to travel through, which will never be developed.

Providing public transit access to the Gamelin gate would be a huge benefit to Gatineau Park and the city. It's a jumping off point to a couple hundred kilometres of cross country ski trails, hiking and cycling paths. Imagine being a car-less condo dweller and being able to access this easily, it would add to the general liveability of the city to be able to just hop on a train for a brief escape. If you've ever taken the packed shuttle buses on the parkway for the fall colours you'd see the potential in this. I would wager a Gatineau Park station would be end up being busier than Cyrville, Dominion or Iris.

To spend a couple of billion to go out to the village-y area of Aylmer is one thing, but to speculate that the golf courses will be re-developped or that the owners of half-acre estates (who probably moved there for the golf courses) would suddenly pine for urbanity and clamour for denser rezoning is another. Even the best of TOD cannot rely on transit 100%, so any new development a line brings will add a burden on the road system no matter what — if you constrict roadways prematurely, you also risk strangling future development and the viability of the transit line itself.

While development within the confines of the "Plateau" might be limited, much of everything else west and north between the border of Gatineau Park (de la Montagne) and the 148 remains a blank canvas, an area as vast as all the built-up areas in Aylmer combined.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Providing public transit access to the Gamelin gate would be a huge benefit to Gatineau Park and the city. It's a jumping off point to a couple hundred kilometres of cross country ski trails, hiking and cycling paths. Imagine being a car-less condo dweller and being able to access this easily, it would add to the general liveability of the city to be able to just hop on a train for a brief escape. If you've ever taken the packed shuttle buses on the parkway for the fall colours you'd see the potential in this. I would wager a Gatineau Park station would be end up being busier than Cyrville, Dominion or Iris.

This isn't exclusive to Gamelin though. You could just as easily have a new visitor centre at Taché, where visitors could not only access the park, but you could turn Val-Tétreau into the front door to the park with shops and services catering to hikers, cyclists, and skiers. How nice would it be for these condo-dwellers to be able to not only go off for an escape in the Gatineau Park, but also enjoy a nice dinner afterwards and to watch the sun set over the Ottawa river?

While development within the confines of the "Plateau" might be limited, much of everything else west and north between the border of Gatineau Park (de la Montagne) and the 148 remains a blank canvas, an area as vast as all the built-up areas in Aylmer combined.

But that's just it - that blank canvas no longer exists. It's been built-up or is being built up. The only undeveloped parcels directly north of Allumettières is the Forêt Boucher, which is not developable. The virgin frontier has moved about 2km north to Antoine-Boucher or Pink, far outside any conceivable TOD radius.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

This isn't exclusive to Gamelin though. You could just as easily have a new visitor centre at Taché, where visitors could not only access the park, but you could turn Val-Tétreau into the front door to the park with shops and services catering to hikers, cyclists, and skiers. How nice would it be for these condo-dwellers to be able to not only go off for an escape in the Gatineau Park, but also enjoy a nice dinner afterwards and to watch the sun set over the Ottawa river?

Gamelin is where the park starts to open up though, everything south of it is far too fragmented. It's where the skiing really starts and branches off, as well as some snowshoeing. In fact, the Taché entrance is nothing but a narrow parkway corridor. I doubt there is even room for a proper visitor centre there, and it would be isolated from the park's real natural qualities. Gamelin gate is also easily closed without any impact, south of that the parkway and Lac-Does Fées function as relief to bleed some traffic off des Allumettières before the three-ring-circus through Wrightville. Personally, I think they should just sever that southern part and manage it as an urban park (Parc du Lac-des-Fées), since it's pointless to apply the same conservation standards as the wilder parts of Gatineau Park here.

But that's just it - that blank canvas no longer exists. It's been built-up or is being built up. The only undeveloped parcels directly north of Allumettières is the Forêt Boucher, which is not developable. The virgin frontier has moved about 2km north to Antoine-Boucher or Pink, far outside any conceivable TOD radius.

Might not be for hardcore TOD, but certainly within the catchment of collector bus routes. 2 kms isn't much, development has already crept beyond Pink. The big box centre could also be feasibly reconfigured and redeveloped to a more pedestrian focused area.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Might not be for hardcore TOD, but certainly within the catchment of collector bus routes. 2 kms isn't much, development has already crept beyond Pink. The big box centre could also be feasibly reconfigured and redeveloped to a more pedestrian focused area.

It could definitely be served with collector routes - agreed.

But that moots the argument that Allumettières could leverage greenfield TOD. After all, if you can't walk to it from transit, it just simply isn't TOD - hardcore, softcore, or otherwise.

So in a Chemin d'Aylmer scenario, instead of taking a collector bus to Allumettières, that same bus could continue another 1,5 km south. Because here's the thing - because of its pronounced curve north, Allumettières isn't actually a shorter route than Chemin d'Aylmer for anyone living west of Vanier Rd - it's about equivalent. But Allumettières is a significantly longer route for anyone south of it. It's one of the reasons I'm not crazy about the route - it disadvantages the vast majority of Aylmer's population which lives to the south of the highway without significantly improving things for those living north of it.

And then the TOD arguments also enter in Chemin d'Aylmer's favour. I feel like we've established that Chemin d'Aylmer presents more opportunities for TOD greenfield development since it has more undeveloped, underperforming and developable (unlike, say the parkland south of Allumettières or Forêt Boucher) land right beside it. In terms of redevelopment, you're right that the Smart Centre could be redeveloped. So could the Galeries d'Aylmer, which is of similar size. However, the Smart Centre is still doing well as it is and doesn't have as much incentive to reinvent itself because of that.

[J.OT13]

According to an article in Le Droit, published May 4, 2018 titled "C'est Gatineau qui planifiera l'arrimage avec Ottawa" (unfortunately, I can't find a full version online), the Mayor of Gatineau is ready to draft up plans to integrate the LRT systems of both cities, while Ottawa focuses on Kanata. He says the City of Gatineau will study the possibility of joining the two systems more than once (so at least two crossings, if feasible). This is good news, because the PoW, while likely the cheapest option regardless of the condition of the bridge (restoration or full-rebuild), it would not, IMO, be the best option in practice.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

According to an article in Le Droit, published May 4, 2018 titled "C'est Gatineau qui planifiera l'arrimage avec Ottawa" (unfortunately, I can't find a full version online), the Mayor of Gatineau is ready to draft up plans to integrate the LRT systems of both cities, while Ottawa focuses on Kanata. He says the City of Gatineau will study the possibility of joining the two systems more than once (so at least two crossings, if feasible). This is good news, because the PoW, while likely the cheapest option regardless of the condition of the bridge (restoration or full-rebuild), it would not, IMO, be the best option in practice.

Here's the full article text (from PressReader):

Que la Ville d’Ottawa planifie dès maintenant la phase 3 de son train léger vers Kanata sans prévoir au passage l’arrimage avec futur réseau sur rails de Gatineau ne fait aucune différence pour la suite des choses, assure le maire Maxime Pedneaud-Jobin.

« C’est à nous de proposer un projet qui impliquera un arrimage avec Ottawa, lance-t-il. Le projet que nous allons présenter impliquera le point de contact avec le réseau d’Ottawa. On va analyser la possibilité de le faire sur plus d’un pont. On va étudier toutes les options réalistes. »

M. Pedneaud-Jobin assure que lorsque mis en service, dans environ dix ans, le futur train léger de Gatineau sera arrimé avec le réseau d’Ottawa dès le jour 1. « Il le faut, dit-il. C’est pour ça qu’on fait ça. »

La façon d’y arriver, l’endroit où sera le ou les points d’arrimage, quel réseau de transport traversera la rivière, tout ça reste à préciser. « On travaille là-dessus avec nos partenaires à Ottawa », ajoute le maire Pedneaud-Jobin.

De son côté, le maire d’Ottawa réaffirme qu’il est nécessaire que les différents paliers de gouvernement s’impliquent afin de financer ce projet entre les deux villes.

« C’est nécessaire d’avoir un partenariat avec les deux autres paliers de gouvernement et si la réponse est oui, certainement qu’on va commencer la construction plus tôt », soutient Jim Watson.

Il rappelle que la priorité est la construction de la phase 2 « et ensuite la phase 3, qui inclut Kanata et Gatineau ».

[YOWflier]

It's an appropriate approach. Ottawa is and should be focused on itself primarily; if Gatineau "wants in", they should do the necessary studies and come to the table with credible proposal(s) for consideration. Then, we talk.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

It's an appropriate approach. Ottawa is and should be focused on itself primarily; if Gatineau "wants in", they should do the necessary studies and come to the table with credible proposal(s) for consideration. Then, we talk.

At least the way we're setup. At the moment, Ottawa and Gatineau don't have a cohesive transportation plan. We'd need an uber agency planning transportation on both sides, but there seems to be no desire for that.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

It's an appropriate approach. Ottawa is and should be focused on itself primarily; if Gatineau "wants in", they should do the necessary studies and come to the table with credible proposal(s) for consideration. Then, we talk.

Agreed! I also like that fact that they are looking at all bridges and not stuck on the POW bridge. It may have been in a good location when it was built in 1880 by the Ottawa and Occidental Railway, but the only reason we are considering using it today is that it exists and isn't being used.

The way I see it, the POW bridge is good for connections from western and southern Ottawa to Gatineau, but it isn't very good for going to and from central and eastern Ottawa.

For STO, it makes more sense to have a more easterly crossing (to Rideau?). OC Transpo riders could use the trains contraflow to Hull in exchange for letting STO riders use OC Transpo to continue beyond Rideau (the trains and buses should already be partially emptied from those getting off at Rideau and prior stops).

On their own time frame, OC Transpo could extend the Trillium Line to downtown Hull via the POW bridge and eventually, when STO decides to convert the Rapibus line to LRT, it could have a branch that goes to Bayview (though the POW bridge would likely need to be double tracked for that).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Here's the full article text (from PressReader):

Thanks. I was only able to find a partial version from PresseReader.

[J.OT13]

Tomorrow, we'll find out more about the Gatineau light-rail plans. ICI Radio-Canada listed the routing, technology (I guess we'll find out if it's tram (like the Toronto Streetcar), classic light-rail (like the Calagary C-Train), or Metro (Confederation Line)) and transfer points with Ottawa's O-Train.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/tele/le-tele...portage/76934/train-leger-gatineau-trace

[lrt's friend]

When they talked about it on the radio this morning they said it was going to downtown Gatineau. I hope they don't perpetuate existing issues or make interprovincial transit worse by not connecting the two downtowns together.

[Acajack]

Lightning speed decision-making, it seems.

[J.OT13]

The newscast yesterday seem to suggest multiple points of transfer between the O-Train and the "G"-Train. I'm really hoping they go with Greg Furgus' proposed route, with two lines, the Trillium crossing to Terraces de la Chaudière and the "G"-Train crossing to Rideau.


https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/105...-ouest-ville-gatineau-transports-communs

[lrt's friend]

Odd. Google finds a page on this subject on the CBC website posted today that does not exist when you click on it.

I really want a downtown loop approach so that everybody from both sides of the river are well served in the long-term. I don't think it is in anybody's best interest to require a transfer to get from Rideau to Bank Street or Lyon Street or the future Lebreton project, for that matter. Considering that this line is originating in Aylmer, that is a lot of time wasting back tracking in addition to the transfer between trains.