General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by fawd

Not many people in Phoenix whom have money?

Majority of Diamondbacks season tickets are held by: Ticket brokers, corporate sponsors, & trade partners. This is the case for most pro-sports franchises.


1) Chase Field is too big, and it hurts the game experience when not adequately filled. Jerry Collangelo considers Chase Field's size his biggest regret when he was owner.
2) Phoenix is made up of subplants. People who grew up watching baseball in the outdoors during the afternoon. Chase Field does not give fans that 'traditional' or 'nostalgic' fan experience.
- worth noting that summer heat is one of, if not the primary reason why Phoenix is struggling getting a MLS franchise.
3) and finally... the lack of attendance is simply fatigue... Phoenix is sports/event mecca. Cardinals, Dbacks, Coyotes, Suns, Rising, ASU Football, ASU Basketball, GCU Basketball, Fiesta Bowl, Cactus Bowl, Barrett Jackson, NASCAR Spring, NASCAR Fall, Waste Management Open, Cactus League Spring Training, Rattlers, Mercury, NHRA Drag Racing.. then sprinkle in NCAA Football Championship, Final Four, Super Bowl and just about every concert/music festival imaginable.

The November - March period is one gigantic party in this town!

Don't forget my girl Tay Tay rolling into town tonight.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by fawd

Not many people in Phoenix whom have money?

Majority of Diamondbacks season tickets are held by: Ticket brokers, corporate sponsors, & trade partners. This is the case for most pro-sports franchises.

Do you have any evidence to support that? I (obviously not one of those) have had season tickets since 1998. Through those years, while slowly improving seat location, we have gotten to know the people around us. In most cases we sit next to individuals like ourselves. I realize that is just anecdotal but I find it difficult to believe that the majority of season ticketholders are as you describe.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by fawd

Not many people in Phoenix whom have money?

Majority of Diamondbacks season tickets are held by: Ticket brokers, corporate sponsors, & trade partners. This is the case for most pro-sports franchises.


1) Chase Field is too big, and it hurts the game experience when not adequately filled. Jerry Collangelo considers Chase Field's size his biggest regret when he was owner.
2) Phoenix is made up of subplants. People who grew up watching baseball in the outdoors during the afternoon. Chase Field does not give fans that 'traditional' or 'nostalgic' fan experience.
- worth noting that summer heat is one of, if not the primary reason why Phoenix is struggling getting a MLS franchise.
3) and finally... the lack of attendance is simply fatigue... Phoenix is sports/event mecca. Cardinals, Dbacks, Coyotes, Suns, Rising, ASU Football, ASU Basketball, GCU Basketball, Fiesta Bowl, Cactus Bowl, Barrett Jackson, NASCAR Spring, NASCAR Fall, Waste Management Open, Cactus League Spring Training, Rattlers, Mercury, NHRA Drag Racing.. then sprinkle in NCAA Football Championship, Final Four, Super Bowl and just about every concert/music festival imaginable.

The November - March period is one gigantic party in this town!

A primary problem is lack of a good product. Yes, we are doing well this season, but we were also doing well last season just to blow it midway. Fans are leary of this. When it starts to get closer to September and the Dbacks are still in first, attendance will start jumping as fans get pumped for a possible playoff series.

Some of the other points you mention:
1. Closed stadium - Other teams have roofed stadiums and do just fine.
2. Summer heat - This is litigated by having a closed roof stadium. If people are willing to venture outside for anything else, like hiking Camelback when It's 110°, I don't think this factors in much for an indoor MLB game. Houston gets just as sweltering as we do and they are doing fine with attendance in their stadium.
3. Amount of sports - We are closing in on a #10 metro. Other smaller markets have as many teams as we do and are doing just fine.
4. MLS - Yes, heat was a concern, but not the primary factor of not getting an MLS team yet. There were simply larger MLS markets that were in the running over Phoenix. Phoenix will get an MLS team. It's just a matter of time.
5. Transplants - This is the biggest problem. Too many people have moved here root for their hometown teams. This is part of what makes Phoenix so disconnected IMO. Residents move here and want to hang on to their roots. Florida has the same problem. It's sad when the Dodgers are in town and there is more blue at Chase Field than red. Really not sure how to get fans to love their new teams?

[combusean]

Originally Posted by Obadno

IN what way? vacancies are down, population and rents are up, unemployment down, wage growth is up.

Seems like demand too me

The amount of spec construction that preceded the 2008 crash. There too was demand.

Maybe I'm just cynically oversimplifying things.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by combusean

The amount of spec construction that preceded the 2008 crash. There too was demand.

Maybe I'm just cynically oversimplifying things.

If the economic indicators were more like 2007 than now I’d be inclined to agree but just the other day was an article about most cfo’s expecting the econemy to keep growth for another 2-3 years minimum.

We are good for sometime still, by the time “2008” crashes the econemy has already been in recession for 9 months, housing prices had peaked 2 years earlier, banks had been going out of buisness through the summer. It’s simply not the current situation atm.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Even though I am leary of AZ Central's accuracy these days, DiamondBacks ownership seems to be trying to pull a Coyotes threat. And we all know how fast they left town.

“Square one I think will guarantee baseball to not only leave downtown Phoenix but Maricopa County. And that’s what we don’t want,” he said.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc...ty-deal-chase-field-sound-off/587447002/

Let them go, re-purpose Chase for MLS and give it to the Phoenix Rising when they are granted an expansion. Problem solved! MLS would do awesome Downtown. Rising would pull an easy 21,000 average per game. Almost as much as the DBacks....without all the whining.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by combusean

The July and August doldrums could be solved with tree and shade infrastructure, but Phoenix is barely getting that over the last, what, 12 years?

I'm pretty ignorant about the specifics of what already exists but the thought that occurred to me was to focus on the light rail corridor and do a Texas Two-Step.

Step One would be to determine/stimulate interest in BID's (Business Improvement Districts) along and couple blocks either side of the light rail line. It could be one long BID or more likely 2/3 separate BID's.

The second step would be for the City to conduct a study/survey for potential incremental 'Complete/Green Streets' improvements. Everything from street lights to way-finding to landscape and artistic enhancements in strategic areas and/or stretches.

BID's could provide seed money/matching funds for some improvements as well as part of the ongoing maintenance. The vision would be to focus on the light rail corridor as well as along side streets for a block or two (for starters).

Admittedly, the City would need to provide the heavy funding for any improvements but creating BID's can provide perhaps qualitative enhancements and more importantly placemaker energy for getting things done. So often it's the little things that can make all the difference; "tree and shade infrastructure" should be a high priority.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

Even though I am leary of AZ Central's accuracy these days, DiamondBacks ownership seems to be trying to pull a Coyotes threat. And we all know how fast they left town.


https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc...ty-deal-chase-field-sound-off/587447002/

Let them go, re-purpose Chase for MLS and give it to the Phoenix Rising when they are granted an expansion. Problem solved! MLS would do awesome Downtown. Rising would pull an easy 21,000 average per game. Almost as much as the DBacks....without all the whining.

Maricopa County voted 4-1 for the MOU. Great news

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

Do you have any evidence to support that? I (obviously not one of those) have had season tickets since 1998. Through those years, while slowly improving seat location, we have gotten to know the people around us. In most cases we sit next to individuals like ourselves. I realize that is just anecdotal but I find it difficult to believe that the majority of season ticketholders are as you describe.

While the 3rd party market may be important I suspect it's more at the margin than a key component.

The weakness I assume is in 'business' season tickets which can be a great perk for customers, employees, key suppliers etc.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by airomero83

Maricopa County voted 4-1 for the MOU. Great news

Sorry, maybe I'm not following this closely enough - what are the contents of the Memorandum of Understanding? What is the result?

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by nickw252

Sorry, maybe I'm not following this closely enough - what are the contents of the Memorandum of Understanding? What is the result?

http://ktar.com/story/2058414/maricopa-c...ute-with-d-backs/?show=comments#comments

[TakeFive]

The sense I got from the MOU is that other than the normal landlord/tenant relationship that all other previous entangled obligations to each other are now extinguished.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

Let them go, re-purpose Chase for MLS and give it to the Phoenix Rising when they are granted an expansion. Problem solved! MLS would do awesome Downtown. Rising would pull an easy 21,000 average per game. Almost as much as the DBacks....without all the whining.

IMO if the Dbacks leave they should demolish Chase Field to accommodate a contemporary arena that would serve the Suns. the Coyotes, the Rising, the Mercury and whoever or whatever else they can fit in.

This could then serve as a springboard for higher density mixed-use development for retail/entertainment/residential nearby. There's immense opportunity in that area.

Note: many, especially NBA teams are now building high-end facilities for practice/weights-exercise/rehab purposes away from the playing venue.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

IMO if the Dbacks leave they should demolish Chase Field to accommodate a contemporary arena that would serve the Suns. the Coyotes, the Rising, the Mercury and whoever or whatever else they can fit in.

This could then serve as a springboard for higher density mixed-use development for retail/entertainment/residential nearby. There's immense opportunity in that area.

Note: many, especially NBA teams are now building high-end facilities for practice/weights-exercise/rehab purposes away from the playing venue.

So now we would basically demo TWO good stadiums to get a new one? that would never fly. I would gladly throw tax money at rehabbing TSRA to accommodate the 'Yotes but Sarver would never agree to it. I would even support a new arena to accommodate both teams but knocking both TSRA and Chase probably is not going to happen. I'm hoping that the City of Phoenix can really step in here and work with the DBacks to entice them to stay and rehab Chase to be a more intimate setting of around 38K seats.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by airomero83

So now we would basically demo TWO good stadiums to get a new one? that would never fly. I would gladly throw tax money at rehabbing TSRA to accommodate the 'Yotes but Sarver would never agree to it. I would even support a new arena to accommodate both teams but knocking both TSRA and Chase probably is not going to happen. I'm hoping that the City of Phoenix can really step in here and work with the DBacks to entice them to stay and rehab Chase to be a more intimate setting of around 38K seats.

I can appreciate that at first blush it sounds a little crazy.

I'm skeptical of rehabbing Chase but I wouldn't oppose it and it's up to the D-backs. Coors Field sorta made the same mistake that in hindsight they had more seats than ideal. Couple of years ago they tore out a gaggle of seats in right field and created what they call their 'rooftop deck' which (I think) they sell to upscale millennials so I suppose there are some interesting options that they could look at.

D-backs I'm sure are also award of life-cycle improvements that will be needed.

I kinda have my legs on both sides of the fence. I'd like to see any new facilities funded privately. With respect to Chase (or Talking Stick) the county/city are prolly looking at demolition costs. They could offer needed basic infrastructure improvements as incentive to any private sector development... is all that I'd favor.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by airomero83

So now we would basically demo TWO good stadiums to get a new one? that would never fly. I would gladly throw tax money at rehabbing TSRA to accommodate the 'Yotes but Sarver would never agree to it. I would even support a new arena to accommodate both teams but knocking both TSRA and Chase probably is not going to happen. I'm hoping that the City of Phoenix can really step in here and work with the DBacks to entice them to stay and rehab Chase to be a more intimate setting of around 38K seats.

I'm betting that the City of Phoenix is not going to let the DBacks go without a battle. They will throw everything at them to get them to stay Downtown. I think the taxpayers are not going to approve another stadium (most of the fan comments have been very negative towards this) which puts a big financial burden on a team that is already in the red. So, without a huge backer, I don't see them paying for their own stadium. I agree with you that cutting back that seats a few thousand would be a good bet. They then could use the extra amount of space to add more facilities for the fans.

Another thing I would not be apposed to is finding a way to open the stadium up more when it's not so hot. It would be really awesome if you could get a view of Downtown while at a game. I'm not sure how expensive that would be to undertake though.

On another note, look at what ASU is doing with their stadium. It's practically brand new. Why can't more Pro teams do this? It's a win-win for everybody.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

I'm betting that the City of Phoenix is not going to let the DBacks go without a battle. They will throw everything at them to get them to stay Downtown. I think the taxpayers are not going to approve another stadium (most of the fan comments have been very negative towards this) which puts a big financial burden on a team that is already in the red. So, without a huge backer, I don't see them paying for their own stadium. I agree with you that cutting back that seats a few thousand would be a good bet. They then could use the extra amount of space to add more facilities for the fans.

Another thing I would not be apposed to is finding a way to open the stadium up more when it's not so hot. It would be really awesome if you could get a view of Downtown while at a game. I'm not sure how expensive that would be to undertake though.

On another note, look at what ASU is doing with their stadium. It's practically brand new. Why can't more Pro teams do this? It's a win-win for everybody.

100% agree! I guess it all depends if it's even structurally possible to do that. Not exactly sure how true this is but I've read or heard rumors that it wasn't designed "properly" and all the stress of opening/closing the roof is causing permanent damage. At the very least, I hope the DBacks do some due diligence and pay a 3rd party to get an estimate as to how much it would cost. Does the City own any land immediately around the ballpark? If so, I wonder if they can do some development agreement where they do some GPLET-type arrangement where city gives them land & the DBacks own development rights/revenue? This is the trend that all sports teams are heading (see the Braves).

As a ASU season ticket holder, I love what they did with SDS.

[combusean]

Demolishing Chase Field would be the single biggest waste of money in Arizona's entire history just short of the alt-fuels scam from years ago.

The issue with Chase Field is that it would cost tens of millions to rehab/rightsize it, but the architecture blows and the land values aren't there to make such a venture worthwhile. Whichever dumbass designed a fire lane and a small parking lot directly off the street should be drug into that fire lane, shot, and have vultures eat his sorry corpse on that stupid fucking parking lot. The setback between Chase and Washington is one of the biggest craters downtown and it'll be very hard to fix.

We have a classic chicken and egg--it's ostensibly too big (show me a division championship between a top-two Giants/Dodgers and Dbacks and it'd be standing room only). If they were filling it up, there'd be no reason to recapitalize the land.

The whole notion of the Dbacks' ostensible desire to relocate just feels like an immature abusive spouse's approach to business--"you gimme what I want or I'm leaving!!!1!" If they approached this with both a commitment to stay where they're at and a pragmatic wherewithal to make capital improvements to fix the fan experience--even aside from a quality on-field product--they'd get everything they wanted.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by combusean

Demolishing Chase Field would be the single biggest waste of money in Arizona's entire history just short of the alt-fuels scam from years ago.

The issue with Chase Field is that it would cost tens of millions to rehab/rightsize it, but the architecture blows and the land values aren't there to make such a venture worthwhile. Whichever dumbass designed a fire lane and a small parking lot directly off the street should be drug into that fire lane, shot, and have vultures eat his sorry corpse on that stupid fucking parking lot. The setback between Chase and Washington is one of the biggest craters downtown and it'll be very hard to fix.

We have a classic chicken and egg--it's ostensibly too big (show me a division championship between a top-two Giants/Dodgers and Dbacks and it'd be standing room only). If they were filling it up, there'd be no reason to recapitalize the land.

The whole notion of the Dbacks' ostensible desire to relocate just feels like an immature abusive spouse's approach to business--"you gimme what I want or I'm leaving!!!1!" If they approached this with both a commitment to stay where they're at and a pragmatic wherewithal to make capital improvements to fix the fan experience--even aside from a quality on-field product--they'd get everything they wanted.

Going from a Phoenix Rising Stadium design standpoint ,where the architect has designed a non-retractable stadium that can potentially keep the fans cool in the summer heat, I wonder how hard it would be to basically remove the retractable roof from Chase and re-engineer it from a Rising Stadium standpoint with shade in the right spots and design it for airflow? Yes, it would cost 10's of millions, but would still be a heck of a lot cheaper than potentially $670+ million (based off the cost of SunTrust Park which would probably be well into the 700+ range by 2023)...and you would keep them Downtown, have a full renovation of Chase and renew the "baseball experience" from a seating point-of-view.

Yes, all hopes and dreams I know.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by combusean

Demolishing Chase Field would be the single biggest waste of money in Arizona's entire history just short of the alt-fuels scam from years ago.

The issue with Chase Field is that it would cost tens of millions to rehab/rightsize it, but the architecture blows and the land values aren't there to make such a venture worthwhile.

Just found a 12News piece and I'd guess renovations to 'right-size' the place are closer to $150-200 million. Who knows what else would need to be done. Last appraisal that I'm aware of in 2010 was for $45 million. Even though values have gone up you're still looking primarily at the land value.

So far as the county is concerned their contribution was paid for years ago.

I remain skeptical of throwing good money after bad by trying to right-size Chase. What assistance the city of Phoenix would or could be able to do I dunno. They've sunk so much money into GPLETS etc it's hard to say what their appetite would be.