Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

5b) Almost all of the SE Transitway. These are mostly local neighbourhood stations (and should also resemble Dominion) but have 100m platforms, indoor overpasses, shelters designed for hundreds of people, etc.

Most of those stations are quite modest other than they met a standard. I know Walkley has small indoor waiting areas, and from driving by most of the other stations, they are also quite small. I am not sure what you expect about platforms and overpasses? Do you want multiple buses arriving at a station in tandem to have to enter the station one at a time, thus slowing the whole Transitway service down entirely. Did you want passengers walking across the Transitway at grade possibly in front of buses?

This whole debate has become ridiculous and pointless. I have no idea anymore why we are discussing this?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Point taken.

At one point in time Queensway Station was probably destined for greater things.

OC Transpo had a route numbered 99 that crossed pretty much the entire city on the Queensway. This station was meant to be the transfer point between the 99 (and maybe some other routes using the Queensway) and all of the routes going north-south on the Transitway there.

Way back when when I lived in Ottawa and the 99 was fully in service, I don't ever recall that station being hardly used at all.

Unless I am mistaken there won't be a station there when the LRT is extended to Baseline, will there?

[Truenorth00]

@acottawa

What I take from this is that you think just because it's BRT, the station should be a glorified bus shelter. Hence, why you think so much of the system is overbuilt.

If you though Cyrville was overbuilt for having stairs and shelter under the overpass, I don't know what to tell you.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think you can get people to use transit if you offer them total 🞵🞵🞵🞵. Especially on the main line of your rapid transit network.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Most of those stations are quite modest other than they met a standard. I know Walkley has small indoor waiting areas, and from driving by most of the other stations, they are also quite small. I am not sure what you expect about platforms and overpasses? Do you want multiple buses arriving at a station in tandem to have to enter the station one at a time, thus slowing the whole Transitway service down entirely. Did you want passengers walking across the Transitway at grade possibly in front of buses?

There are a number of examples of more minimalist stations in Ottawa: Bayview, Dominion, some of the Trillium stations. BRT systems in other cities also provide examples. In rush hour most of the buses bypass these stations anyway, so they are not usually the source of congestion.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There are a number of examples of more minimalist stations in Ottawa: Bayview, Dominion, some of the Trillium stations. BRT systems in other cities also provide examples. In rush hour most of the buses bypass these stations anyway, so they are not usually the source of congestion.

All the Trillium Line stations were all designed as part of a temporary demonstration project. Dominion was a fill-in station that was added after the fact.

I still don't understand the point of it all.

Are you now sawing that the Confederation Line stations should also be bus shelters on the side of the tracks?

Just look at REM, which will have heated/air conditioned stations.

If we were building BRT or streetcars in reserved lanes on streets, yes, I can see them as bus shelters. When, it is grade separated transit, stations are usually more elaborate.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

Caution :

Queensway station - on the Transitway south of Lincoln Fields, north of Baseline, north of Iris, to be closed when the Baseline leg is converted to LRT.

Queensview station - on the new west leg west of Lincoln Fields to Moodie, east of Pinecrest, located beside the 417 between IKEA and the OC-Transpo shops.

EnJoy!

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

All the Trillium Line stations were all designed as part of a temporary demonstration project. Dominion was a fill-in station that was added after the fact.

I still don't understand the point of it all.

Are you now sawing that the Confederation Line stations should also be bus shelters on the side of the tracks?

Just look at REM, which will have heated/air conditioned stations.

If we were building BRT or streetcars in reserved lanes on streets, yes, I can see them as bus shelters. When, it is grade separated transit, stations are usually more elaborate.

I'm saying there should be a relationship between the intended use of the station (or any piece of infrastructure: roads, library branches, arenas, etc.) and the resources put into it. In my view, the transitway went way overboard in overbuilding infrastructure.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

5c) Lincoln Fields - Whitest Elephant of them all. Two distinct stations, 400m of platforms and only a handful of local routes to actually transfer to or from.

I read somewhere that the Transitway was originally intended to operate like way the Rapibus line does, with buses that only run up and down the Transitway and people transferring to and from it at the stations. Under that model, Lincoln Fields would have been a major transfer station. Not sure how or why that model changed.

Originally Posted by Acajack

At one point in time Queensway Station was probably destined for greater things.

OC Transpo had a route numbered 99 that crossed pretty much the entire city on the Queensway. This station was meant to be the transfer point between the 99 (and maybe some other routes using the Queensway) and all of the routes going north-south on the Transitway there.

Way back when when I lived in Ottawa and the 99 was fully in service, I don't ever recall that station being hardly used at all.

The problem with the 99 was that OC Transpo's route planners didn't believe in the vision for it to be a rapid, crosstown route, so had it get off the Queensway at Carling and run along Carling, Bronson, and Chamberlain and Pretoria eastbound or Catherine westbound, making it a very slow way to get across town.

Unless I am mistaken there won't be a station there when the LRT is extended to Baseline, will there?

Correct. As PHrenetic said, it will be replaced with a Queensview station on the line to Bayshore/Moodie.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm saying there should be a relationship between the intended use of the station (or any piece of infrastructure: roads, library branches, arenas, etc.) and the resources put into it. In my view, the transitway went way overboard in overbuilding infrastructure.

Are you arguing the same for the Confederation Line? Example Cyrville Station, which will be much more elaborate than the previous Transitway station.

The Transitway Stations often were grade separated, hence the need for elevators, stairs, and pedestrian overpasses. The stations had to allow for two or three buses to stop in line, and to offer shelter to waiting passengers. How is that considered an overbuild? Open stairs and pedestrian overpasses would have been a winter hazard that would require constant maintenance.

I still don't understand the point.

We will have to agree to disagree. The Transitway investment served the city well for 30 years and compared to LRT, was a bargain. The Transitways did not cost us anywhere near the Phase 1 and 2 $5B even adjusted for inflation.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Are you arguing the same for the Confederation Line? Example Cyrville Station, which will be much more elaborate than the previous Transitway station.

The Transitway Stations often were grade separated, hence the need for elevators, stairs, and pedestrian overpasses. The stations had to allow for two or three buses to stop in line, and to offer shelter to waiting passengers. How is that considered an overbuild? Open stairs and pedestrian overpasses would have been a winter hazard that would require constant maintenance.

I still don't understand the point.

We will have to agree to disagree. The Transitway investment served the city well for 30 years and compared to LRT, was a bargain. The Transitways did not cost us anywhere near the Phase 1 and 2 $5B even adjusted for inflation.

Yes, I agree Cyrville is overbuilt, I have said so earlier in this thread.

You don't need elevators, stairs and pedestrian overpasses for lightly-used stations in the middle of empty fields. Even a heavily used station like Bayview can function fairly well without elevators, stairs and pedestrian overpasses. I'm not even sure you need to grade separate little local streets such as Pleasant Park.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You don't need elevators, stairs and pedestrian overpasses for lightly-used stations in the middle of empty fields. Even a heavily used station like Bayview can function fairly well without elevators, stairs and pedestrian overpasses. I'm not even sure you need to grade separate little local streets such as Pleasant Park.

Yup. A rope ladder and a fireman's pole should be good enough to get up and down from Cyrville above.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Yup. A rope ladder and a fireman's pole should be good enough to get up and down from Cyrville above.

Fortunately the Egyptians invented the incline plane 5000 years ago, so I think we're good.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Fortunately the Egyptians invented the incline plane 5000 years ago, so I think we're good.

Yup, and a couple hundred years ago the Nordics invented the sport of downhill skiing.

[JHikka]

UOttawa Station this afternoon:

flickr, by me

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Yes, I agree Cyrville is overbuilt, I have said so earlier in this thread.

You don't need elevators, stairs and pedestrian overpasses for lightly-used stations in the middle of empty fields. Even a heavily used station like Bayview can function fairly well without elevators, stairs and pedestrian overpasses. I'm not even sure you need to grade separate little local streets such as Pleasant Park.

Cyrville never had an overpass. Just stairs on both side of the street (for each platform). And elevators are needed for accessibility, something Montreal epicly failed at, even when they built the blue line during the same era as Ottawa's Transitway.

Cyrville was probably the simplest station along the 80s and 90s Transitway because of the low ridership projections.

As a pilot project, Bayview was only given gentle slopes between the rail-line and the infill Transitway bus stop, which is understandable.

I think the stations were well-sized for what they were (for the most part).

It's funny how people complain that the Confederation Line stations, that are much more elaborate than the Transitway stations, are under-built, while calling the Trasitway Stations over-built.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It's funny how people complain that the Confederation Line stations, that are much more elaborate than the Transitway stations, are under-built, while calling the Trasitway Stations over-built.

This.

And it's entirely because of this strange idea that bus = cheap.

"It's BRT so it doesn't justify station investment."

What?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Cyrville was probably the simplest station along the 80s and 90s Transitway because of the low ridership projections.

No, I think that honour goes to Iris.

I think the stations were well-sized for what they were (for the most part). [/QUOTE]

I would tend to agree. Lincoln Fields was probably overbuilt for what it was actually used for but not for its design purpose.

The reality is I don’t think it was the stations that made the Transitway costs balloon but all of the trenching.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The reality is I don’t think it was the stations that made the Transitway costs balloon but all of the trenching.

Right. If we're going to discuss overbuilding the Transitway, this is probably a more sensible and legitimate argument. They didn't need to trench everywhere.

But I will argue that the trenching was a worthwhile investment. It allowed them to offer amazing suburban bus service with fast one-seat rides to the core. That has contributed to a boost in suburban ridership. There is no way Express buses would have been as effective without grade separation. You'd simply have all the buses getting jammed up at every intersection.

And that trenching is still paying dividends by keeping the cost of LRT construction low today. Imagine what Phase 1 of the Confederation Line would have cost, if there was no grade separated Transitway. The same dollars probably would have only made it to St. Laurent. At best.....

One of my personal criticisms on how they built the Transitway is that they really should have worked a little bit more to build it for rail. I wish they had built the stations in a way that allowed for really quick and easy conversion to rail, so that they didn't need to tear down and rebuild all the stations along the corridor.

[J.OT13]

Parliament Station from late April by me.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

No, I think that honour goes to Iris.

The reality is I don’t think it was the stations that made the Transitway costs balloon but all of the trenching.

Ah yeah, Iris.

Trenching was definitely a factor and although the same would have been done with LRT, the trench would have been narrower, so arguably, when you combine that with a cheaper St-Laurent tunnel and station, price of LRT vs BRT would have been pretty comparable.