PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by MAF1968

As a Philly Fire Fighter I cringe at the thought of a heavy timber high rise. I'll admit I don't know anything about this type of construction. I'll do my home work but fighting a fire in this type of building would be a night mare.

for what it's worth, from a architects forum

Back to basics
"Wood is one of nature's most innovative building materials: the production has no waste products and it binds CO2. Wood has low weight, but is a very strong load-bearing structure compared to its lightness. Wood is also more fire resistant than both steel and concrete. This is due to 15% of wood mass being water, which will evaporate before the wood actually burns. In addition, logs get charred which protects the core. Wood secures a good indoor climate, perfect acoustics, helps regulating the inside temperature and can be exposed without being covered with plaster or other costly materials"

I would bet that one of the secrets, one of the hold ups in this type of construction is how to make rigid connections between the various pieces of wood. Glue works very well in near perfect conditions, which aren't on a construction site 500' up in the air. You can't weld wood and if you bolt it together the metal plates and bolts have to be fire proved. But if the costs are kept down then hi-rise wood structured buildings could happen in the near future.
What union would be in the lead for putting pre-fabed wooden structures together?

[Mr Saturn64]

I know that's completely hypothetical, and the odds of a wooden skyscraper that height (how tall is that, 900?) is well... rather absurd, but I like the design of it very much. Imagine how that would look if it were made of glass and steel. That's the type of skyscraper I want to see there.

[mcgrath618]

Interesting read:
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/re...new-ownership-in-100m-deal-20180425.html

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64

I know that's completely hypothetical, and the odds of a wooden skyscraper that height (how tall is that, 900?) is well... rather absurd, but I like the design of it very much. Imagine how that would look if it were made of glass and steel. That's the type of skyscraper I want to see there.

I'd agree with this. It's a really cool looking tower.

[Schmidt519]

Although Mill Construction with laminated beams is pretty resistant to fire and can survive severe fire, it don't think it would be good material for high rise. Mill Construction is a subclass of Category 2 (Joisted Masonry). Of course Fire is not the only consideration in highrise design and probably would not score high in alot of other areas as well. Categories of building construction from the least fire-resistive category to the most fire-resistive category, are as follows: From my understanding, its very expensive but Mill Construction should have minimum two hour fire-resistance rating on bearing walls, which means its among the most resistive to fire.

1) Frame—Exterior walls of wood, brick veneer, stone veneer, wood ironclad, or stucco on wood. (Construction Code 1)

2) Joisted Masonry—Exterior walls of masonry material (adobe, brick, concrete, gypsum block, hollow concrete block, stone, tile, or similar materials) with combustible floor and roof. (Construction Code 2)

3) Noncombustible—Exterior walls, floor, and supports made of metal, asbestos, gypsum, or other noncombustible materials. (Construction Code 3)

4) Masonry Noncombustible—Same as joisted masonry except that the floors and roof are of metal or other noncombustible materials. (Construction Code 4)

5) Modified Fire Resistive—Exterior walls, floors, and roof of masonry or fire-resistive material with a fire resistance rating of at least 1 hour but less than 2 hours. (Construction Code 5)

6) Fire Resistive—Exterior walls, floors, and roof of masonry or fire-resistive materials with a fire resistance rating of at least 2 hours. (Construction Code 6)

[Frontst17]

I dont see many buildings where the steel structure is exposed throughout the building and I cant imagine the wood structure will be exposed like some box of matches waiting for a spark. There will still be glass and walls and protective covering and probably still plenty of steel. Its probably equally as likely as any building to catch fire. This won't be a Bangladeshi garment factory. Its an incredible idea and would put the Philly skyline on the global map in a world craving eco friendly business ideas.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64

I know that's completely hypothetical, and the odds of a wooden skyscraper that height (how tall is that, 900?) is well... rather absurd, but I like the design of it very much. Imagine how that would look if it were made of glass and steel. That's the type of skyscraper I want to see there.

I don't know if absurd is the right word; unlikely is probably better. They should be starting smaller IMO. I've noticed a lot of proposals from around the world within the last couple years. From what I understand, cross-laminated timber is supposed to be as strong as steel and actually is safer in a fire since it doesn't burn well and doesn't pose the same danger of collapse as steel does. It's also much faster to assemble and lighter/cheaper to transport, a renewable material and takes less energy/creates less pollution to produce than steel (and I think I remember reading concrete). Not saying that it should be used everywhere, but it seems to make sense to at least consider as a building material.



This highway bridge has been around for a while in South Dakota. I think Canada and Finland have a bunch of mass timber bridges.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Wye



Some more bridge examples:
https://www.nordic.ca/en/projects/mass-timber-bridges

Building recently completed in Minnesota:
https://www.dezeen.com/2016/12/02/michae...mber-building-usa-minneapolis-minnesota/



Building in England:
https://www.treehugger.com/green-archite...est-cross-laminated-timber-building.html



Curbed map of some other proposals:
https://www.curbed.com/maps/tall-timber-construction-projects-in-the-works

Edit: better list than the curbed article:
https://archinect.com/news/tag/620311/wooden-skyscraper

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64

I know that's completely hypothetical, and the odds of a wooden skyscraper that height (how tall is that, 900?) is well... rather absurd, but I like the design of it very much. Imagine how that would look if it were made of glass and steel. That's the type of skyscraper I want to see there.

It's only absurd until someone does it! The present record is what, 300' tall, so my guess is that taller will be possible soon if its not already possible. Possible doesn't mean that it makes sense, but if carbon credits and trade offs become common place then there might be enough push to get this method of construction rolling. There's always a learning curve with new materials and methods.

BTW---in looking at photos of the recently completed building in Vancouver and the one under construction in Stockholm or Finland it looks like the wooden beams and ceiling planks are left uncovered. And why not if they are fire resistant.

[McBane]

You guys aren't asking the right questions here. This is Philadelphia after all. If a building were to be built of timber, which of the building unions would be left out in the cold? Assuming that this would adversely affect union participation, then this has a snowball's chance in hell at happening. Anyone remember those waterless urinals in the original Comcast Center????

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by McBane

You guys aren't asking the right questions here. This is Philadelphia after all. If a building were to be built of timber, which of the building unions would be left out in the cold? Assuming that this would adversely affect union participation, then this has a snowball's chance in hell at happening. Anyone remember those waterless urinals in the original Comcast Center????

Sad but very true.

[Baconboy007]

Originally Posted by McBane

You guys aren't asking the right questions here. This is Philadelphia after all. If a building were to be built of timber, which of the building unions would be left out in the cold? Assuming that this would adversely affect union participation, then this has a snowball's chance in hell at happening. Anyone remember those waterless urinals in the original Comcast Center????

Didn't they put in the pipes for the urinals even through they are not connected?

[JohnIII]

This project, if Comcast builds it, wouldn't just be tower 3 but rather tower 3 and tower 4; however these towers are huge; I'll take a guess of between 700 to 950' but they won't fit on that site will that. The only way I can see these building being built on the site is if 1tower is build between Arch and Cherry and the other between Cherry and Race. If the taller tower is built on Arch its far enough away from the Parkway to achieve a good height like the Bell Atlantic Tower is; and Logan Circle would still get sun once the sun's rays pass 20th Street. Its an intriguing possibility.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Baconboy007

Didn't they put in the pipes for the urinals even through they are not connected?

Right, essentially 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 work to give the plumber's union a job.

[JohnIII]

I wonder what the Skyline will look like with these towers; from different angles?

[JohnIII]

Okay, this is what I'm hearing; though I can neither confirm or deny anything. Lets just have fun.

The tallest tower if I'm not mistaken is 62 stories; the space from floor to floor is 13 feet but with the space of the actual floors themselves and with a 6 story cooling tower; it should come to around 1020 feet. If anyone has any other calculations please jump in.

The residential tower is 32 floors and has a floor to floor space of 11 feet plus the actual thickness of the floor; it shouldn't be any tower than 416 feet

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by JohnIII

Okay, this is what I'm hearing; though I can neither confirm or deny anything. Lets just have fun.

The tallest tower if I'm not mistaken is 62 stories; the space from floor to floor is 13 feet but with the space of the actual floors themselves and with a 6 story cooling tower; it should come to around 1020 feet. If anyone has any other calculations please jump in.

The residential tower is 32 floors and has a floor to floor space of 11 feet plus the actual thickness of the floor; it shouldn't be any tower than 416 feet

Are you taking about the Comcast III/Liberty project?

[Mr Saturn64]

Originally Posted by JohnIII

Okay, this is what I'm hearing; though I can neither confirm or deny anything. Lets just have fun.

The tallest tower if I'm not mistaken is 62 stories; the space from floor to floor is 13 feet but with the space of the actual floors themselves and with a 6 story cooling tower; it should come to around 1020 feet. If anyone has any other calculations please jump in.

The residential tower is 32 floors and has a floor to floor space of 11 feet plus the actual thickness of the floor; it shouldn't be any tower than 416 feet

Is that that totally hypothetical wooden tower we were just talking about? It didn't look quite liked it cracked 1,000 in the rendering. 900 seemed more like it. But I thought that was the type of building that would be classified as a "vision" on the diagrams, not a valid proposal. But then again, as you said, "let's just have fun." And I'm OK with having fun with hypothetical supertalls in Philly.

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by JohnIII

Okay, this is what I'm hearing; though I can neither confirm or deny anything. Lets just have fun.

The tallest tower if I'm not mistaken is 62 stories; the space from floor to floor is 13 feet but with the space of the actual floors themselves and with a 6 story cooling tower; it should come to around 1020 feet. If anyone has any other calculations please jump in.

The residential tower is 32 floors and has a floor to floor space of 11 feet plus the actual thickness of the floor; it shouldn't be any tower than 416 feet

Commercial building floor to floor heights, depending on the size of the floor plates, are more like 17 feet.
So if all floor heights are the same, and they rarely are, it comes in at 1156 feet.

[Gonzo the Great]

Originally Posted by McBane

Right, essentially 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 work to give the plumber's union a job.

Are you saying the plumbers union by passed all regulations , had approval from Comcast to violate safety and
health codes and no one corrected the situation ??? Or do you just not like the plumbers union executives .....
or any unions at all .

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Gonzo the Great

Are you saying the plumbers union by passed all regulations , had approval from Comcast to violate safety and
health codes and no one corrected the situation ??? Or do you just not like the plumbers union executives .....
or any unions at all .

I don't like Philadelphia Unions at all due to their increasingly apparent similarities to the mob.