Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

But there’s no NEED for planes to make the same trip either.

IMO, I agree with you. There is no need for planes to make the same, overlapping trip either, as you say.
BUT .... the plane service is already up and running. The HSR service is only in the conceptual stage, will take a long time to get built, and will cost a couple of Billion $$$$.
It's economics; using what we already have - in this case planes- that is the governing factor here, I think.
Sure, the HSR idea is fantastic. But with planes already providing transport, who wants to pay mega megabucks for an additional rail service? It boils down to $$$$ cost.

[Lancaster]

Not trying to pivot away from the interesting conversation on HSR, but what about something a little closer to home like RER? Toronto has had GO Trains since the 60s and is investing in electrification and RER across the GTA, Montreal is building a new RER. What is the Lower Mainland's plan to create reliable connections between the various communities over the coming decade?

Is it far-fetched to think the region should be starting with something similar to OC Transpo Transitway service in dedicated lanes/corridors that can later be converted for RER train service? Would creating dedicated bus "expressways" that can take people from West Vancouver to White Rock (or Richmond to Abbotsford, or UBC to Port Coquitlam) in under 60 minutes be a place to start?

Many one-way transit trips take upwards of 2 hours from some communities to others. What would the Lower Mainland be like if you could get between all the major employment centres in 60 minutes on transit, regardless of time of day?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Lancaster

Not trying to pivot away from the interesting conversation on HSR, but what about something a little closer to home like RER? Toronto has had GO Trains since the 60s and is investing in electrification and RER across the GTA, Montreal is building a new RER. What is the Lower Mainland's plan to create reliable connections between the various communities over the coming decade?

Is it far-fetched to think the region should be starting with something similar to OC Transpo Transitway service in dedicated lanes/corridors that can later be converted for RER train service? Would creating dedicated bus "expressways" that can take people from West Vancouver to White Rock (or Richmond to Abbotsford, or UBC to Port Coquitlam) in under 60 minutes be a place to start?

Many one-way transit trips take upwards of 2 hours from some communities to others. What would the Lower Mainland be like if you could get between all the major employment centres in 60 minutes on transit, regardless of time of day?

SkyTrain is intended to do just that. The problem is that West Van is full of NIMBY snobs who hate all forms of transit, and White Rock is getting cut from the network because of regional politics.

As for Abbotsford, we could do commuter rail... one day, when freight service slackens off enough to allow a round-the-clock passenger route.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Lancaster

Not trying to pivot away from the interesting conversation on HSR, but what about something a little closer to home like RER? Toronto has had GO Trains since the 60s and is investing in electrification and RER across the GTA, Montreal is building a new RER. What is the Lower Mainland's plan to create reliable connections between the various communities over the coming decade?

Is it far-fetched to think the region should be starting with something similar to OC Transpo Transitway service in dedicated lanes/corridors that can later be converted for RER train service? Would creating dedicated bus "expressways" that can take people from West Vancouver to White Rock (or Richmond to Abbotsford, or UBC to Port Coquitlam) in under 60 minutes be a place to start?

Many one-way transit trips take upwards of 2 hours from some communities to others. What would the Lower Mainland be like if you could get between all the major employment centres in 60 minutes on transit, regardless of time of day?

They don't seem to have a plan. They have 1 line, the West Coast Express that really has not been expanded or upgraded for 20 years.

[swimmer_spe]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundla...study-results-1.4614188?cmp=FB_Post_News

Meanwhile in NFLD..... A rail fixed link......

[ClaytonA]

CN's western Canada rail investments;

https://www.cn.ca/en/your-industry/grain/western-canada-operations-update

... Medium- and longer-term steps to maintain improved operational and service levels

In the second half of 2018, taking delivery of the first 60 new locomotives of our recent 200-unit order.
Investing over $250 million this spring and summer to build new tracks and yard capacity to efficiently handle more traffic. Work includes:

- Between Edmonton and Winnipeg: Five stretches of double track in eastern Alberta and Saskatchewan along CN’s mainline across the Prairies.

- Alberta: A new long section of double track west of Edmonton on CN’s mainline corridor to B.C. and the West Coast and new yard capacity in the Edmonton area.

- Manitoba: Yard capacity improvements.

Additional passing sidings allow trains moving in opposite directions to operate faster through the corridor.

- Northern B.C.: Four additional train sidings and two siding extensions for long trains on corridor between Prince Rupert, B.C. and Jasper, Alberta.

- Edmonton to Vancouver corridor: A siding extension north of Kamloops.

...

Nothing specific to the Port's Federal government ask for Burrard Inlet crossing and South of Fraser rail improvements budgeted.

[ClaytonA]

Re HSR to Seattle:

Do enough planning to start setting aside an alignment. That's the only thing to have as a goal right now. Do more incremental improvements for Amtrak Cascades. What are the requirements to get a 3rd and 4th train per day as per the 2006 Long Range and 2008 Mid-Range WSDOT plans? I'd much rather they spend a couple hundred million on some more rail sidings instead of extra lanes for the second widest bridge in the world on GM bridge. If they're extorted for a new Fraser River rail bridge, then that's another story.

https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Rail/Plans.htm

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

They don't seem to have a plan. They have 1 line, the West Coast Express that really has not been expanded or upgraded for 20 years.

They've bought new coaches and locomotives in the mid 2000's and 2010 to extend each train by one coach.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

They've bought new coaches and locomotives in the mid 2000's and 2010 to extend each train by one coach.

And in the last 20 years, what has GO and AMT/RMT done?

The Lower Mainland is a joke. They claim to be environmentally conscious, yet they really have done little to actually do anything about it.

[nname]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

And in the last 20 years, what has GO and AMT/RMT done?

The Lower Mainland is a joke. They claim to be environmentally conscious, yet they really have done little to actually do anything about it.

Well, Greater Toronto and Montreal got much more population to support this service.

How many people do you think will commute into Vancouver from Abbotsford?

As for Langley (city), ideally it would be better served by extension of existing SkyTrain service. Speedwise commuter rail (straighter alignment, not using SRY) vs Skytrain is about the same, but SkyTrain will have more destinations. It's just that the SoF municipalities like to screw themselves over.

There was actually a study about commuter service in SoF. And the conclusion - not worth it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Currently, there's an express bus every half-hour from Chilliwack to Surrey (terminating at Carvolth Exchange) - let's wait for that thing to fill up before we start talking commuter rail.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, Greater Toronto and Montreal got much more population to support this service.

How many people do you think will commute into Vancouver from Abbotsford?

As for Langley (city), ideally it would be better served by extension of existing SkyTrain service. Speedwise commuter rail (straighter alignment, not using SRY) vs Skytrain is about the same, but SkyTrain will have more destinations. It's just that the SoF municipalities like to screw themselves over.

There was actually a study about commuter service in SoF. And the conclusion - not worth it.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Currently, there's an express bus every half-hour from Chilliwack to Surrey (terminating at Carvolth Exchange) - let's wait for that thing to fill up before we start talking commuter rail.

Population of: in milions
GTA 6.4
Greater Montreal 4.1
Lower Mainland 2.7

Yet, Toronto and Montreal areas keep improving their commuter rail. The difference between each of them is about 2 million. However, the difference between their commuter rail systems is not on the same magnitude. GO and RMT is much closer to each other. RMT is nothing like WCE.

I am also not just talking about going from Abbotsford. Why are the 2 ferry terminals not connected by a rail link? Horseshoe Bay at least has one a few hundred meters away.



If you build it, they will come.

[nname]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am also not just talking about going from Abbotsford. Why are the 2 ferry terminals not connected by a rail link? Horseshoe Bay at least has one a few hundred meters away.



If you build it, they will come.

High cost. Low demand. Both have multiple rivers and inlet crossings. And again, how many would have daily commute from Victoria/Gulf Islands/Bowen/Nanaimo/Sunshine Coast into Vancouver?

In Horseshoe bay, yes, there's a rail line a few hundred meters away, almost a hundred meters up hill and inside a tunnel. To bring it down to sea level means the last few km will need to be rebuilt through Sprit trail in the middle of a neighborhood (no way they're going to allow that). And even that, how would it cross Burrard inlet? The passengers all have to go to Lonsdale Quay and transfer to SeaBus? It would cost hundred of millions of building something and it end up much slower than just running the express bus.

And regarding to this route - I remember a Bowen Island - Horseshoe Bay - Ambleside - Downtown passenger ferry route was studied... and again, not enough demand to warrant the cost.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[GlassCity]

Yeah, in terms of service to the Fraser Valley exurbs, I think we're doing fine for the demand and population that exists there. You could theoretically bus from Hope to Vancouver, though it would take forever. But the point is, those communities are being slowly woven into the overall Lower Mainland transit system, and we can keep building from that. Demand will build and service will increase accordingly. Same with the HSR idea from Vancouver to Portland. Keep improving what we have now, and make that jump when needed. I think some people are just too impatient and want the highest level of service, even when there may not be the demand for it.

As for the comparison with Toronto's GO Rail specifically, Toronto's very lucky to have a collection of mostly straight rail lines radiating from its downtown in all directions. The railways in the Lower Mainland are very curvy and have to cross some ancient sections along its route. It's much harder to run effective commuter rail service on the rail system in the Lower Mainland than it is in Toronto.

I'll also never get the fantasy of rail to the ferry terminals. Rail is expensive as all hell, and has way too much capacity that would not come close to being filled by the couple hundred people an hour that come in by ferry. For rail to make sense, you need a consistent heavy stream of people taking it in both directions. Ferry terminals don't provide that type of trip generation.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Currently, there's an express bus every half-hour from Chilliwack to Surrey (terminating at Carvolth Exchange) - let's wait for that thing to fill up before we start talking commuter rail.

I'd personally wait until the frequency is every 15-20 minutes and they use accordion busses.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I'd personally wait until the frequency is every 15-20 minutes and they use accordion busses.

Have you heard somewhere that they're going to be bringing live music onto the buses???

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Yeah, in terms of service to the Fraser Valley exurbs, I think we're doing fine for the demand and population that exists there. You could theoretically bus from Hope to Vancouver, though it would take forever.

Population of Hope: 5,000. Doesn't make sense to bring rail to hope, unless it's on the way to somewhere more populous.

Abbotsford, though, that's what the WCE is, Mission is essentially the Surrey of Abbotsford ( geographically speaking... it's across the river )

But the point is, those communities are being slowly woven into the overall Lower Mainland transit system, and we can keep building from that. Demand will build and service will increase accordingly. Same with the HSR idea from Vancouver to Portland. Keep improving what we have now, and make that jump when needed. I think some people are just too impatient and want the highest level of service, even when there may not be the demand for it.

I do agree, but I think that without political push into it, we wont' have the corridors. The corridor is a geographically a good fit for HSR, to be honest. This is particularly with an unpredictable border crossing. The approaches into both cities is what is the most challenging and preserving corridors really should be a high priority.

We don't even have an idea of what a corridor would LOOK like. Follow #99 to a station at the airport? Go up 176th to #1 and then the Grandview cut?
GO through Surrey like it does now? A new GM bridge with a rail component?
[quote]
To give it a comparison, the future route between Kanazawa and Osaka has been talked about for years, particularly the last 185km between Tsuruga and Osaka. It's an expensive proposition, and they need all new tracks ( most trains in Japan are narrow gauge and not compatible with HSR trainsets at all ).

Anyhow, they JUST decided on a route this year, and the planned construction date is to start in 2030 to be completed in 2045. Japan is really crazy about planning and takes forever to make decisions, and it STILL takes time.

I think (and others agree) that for Vancouver-Seattle is that we should be considering alignment now and preserving ROWs now. YVR had the Canada Line built at ground level, because they had a plan ( that was decades away ) of building an overpass connecting North and South runways. They were planning for the future of being a 30 Million pax airport.

We should be planning for the future of being a 20 million person corridor.

I'll also never get the fantasy of rail to the ferry terminals. Rail is expensive as all hell, and has way too much capacity that would not come close to being filled by the couple hundred people an hour that come in by ferry. For rail to make sense, you need a consistent heavy stream of people taking it in both directions. Ferry terminals don't provide that type of trip generation.

I agree with this. train to the boat is just people connecting lines on a map. The Ferry doesn't come often enough and is too remote to justify a station. A shuttle bus to a station up the hill at Horseshoe bay would work just as well.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, Greater Toronto and Montreal got much more population to support this service.

How many people do you think will commute into Vancouver from Abbotsford?

More than you might expect. 40% of WCE riders boarding in Mission are from Abbotsford. It's a 12km drive from downtown Abbotsford to Mission.


source: https://www.abbynews.com/news/mission-west-coast-express-riders-outnumber-abbotsford/

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

More than you might expect. 40% of WCE riders boarding in Mission are from Abbotsford. It's a 12km drive from downtown Abbotsford to Mission.


source: https://www.abbynews.com/news/mission-west-coast-express-riders-outnumber-abbotsford/

With that information, it should be extended to Abbotsford.

Why hasn't a Burnaby infill station ever happen?