Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Speaking of which, Kenneth Chan at DailyHive just pulled out a few examples of what that could look like.

"Wheel bias" is real.

From the above article: Real-time displays, WiFi, and enhanced buses and stops coming to B-Line routes

TransLink is moving forward with a wide spectrum of measures that will make existing and planned new B-Line routes run more quickly and efficiently and improve the passenger experience.

New features that will make the B-Line routes a true ‘rapid bus’ service include new special bus shelters with real-time information screens displaying the current time and time of arrival of the next buses, accessibility elements such as yellow tactile pads, extensive traffic signal priority measures, bus-only lanes, and queue jumpers.

There will even be improvements to the articulated three-door bus vehicles that all B-Line routes will use, such as onboard Wi-Fi, dynamic onboard wayfinding, line diagrams on buses, and a new exterior bus livery that clearly identifies the B-Line as a superior bus service.

“We are working to bring a unique look and feel to the service so that it stands out and can really become a part of people’s mental map of the transit network like people have for the rail lines,” Sarah Ross, the director of system planning at TransLink, told the Mayors’ Council during a public meeting today.

All of this is in addition to the B-Line’s existing features of having limited stops and high frequencies.

...

That's pretty much what Surrey wants with their LRT lines...

[GlassCity]

Great to see how much is being planned to distinguish B-Lines from other routes, especially obviously the actual transit priority. If they're going to be included on rapid transit maps and promoted as a more cost effective way of connecting more major centres, they should be pushed to the highest possible quality. I wonder what happened recently that made this possible. Is it the additional funding acquired, a change in priorities, political stuff, or what?

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I'm just going to refute your last point for now, what city besides Toronto has a streetcar with a fully dedicated ROW and Signal Priority? .

Toronto's streetcar system doesn't have signal priority anywhere. I talked to a few conductors and they said the city doesn't want to implement it for fear of — off drivers.

I think the Surrey LRT will have signal priority, but there's always the possibility of the quality being degraded when its implemented. Even in cities with relatively good signal priority, LRVs still get stopped at lights occasionally.

I don't think LRT is bad, I just don't think the slight improvement is worth the exorbitant cost. A lot of people cite Portland as why rail should be implemented instead of BRT, but it ignores the fact that the city coordinated development with transit improvements. There's no reason why development can't come with a great BRT system.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

Toronto's streetcar system doesn't have signal priority anywhere. I talked to a few conductors and they said the city doesn't want to implement it for fear of — off drivers.

I think the Surrey LRT will have signal priority, but there's always the possibility of the quality being degraded when its implemented. Even in cities with relatively good signal priority, LRVs still get stopped at lights occasionally.

I don't think LRT is bad, I just don't think the slight improvement is worth the exorbitant cost. A lot of people cite Portland as why rail should be implemented instead of BRT, but it ignores the fact that the city coordinated development with transit improvements. There's no reason why development can't come with a great BRT system.

Not to mention that Portland's system isn't even very good - it's just extensive. Frequencies are still pretty bad and outside of downtown and another couple neighbourhoods it largely just takes you from park and ride to park and ride. Really don't get what the hype is about.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I'm just going to refute your last point for now, what city besides Toronto has a streetcar with a fully dedicated ROW and Signal Priority?

Okay, the burden of proof is on me. Fair enough.

Seattle, Kansas City, Philadelphia, New Orleans, Boston and (possibly) New York all have "streetcars" with ROWs - some even have tunnels from the pre-car days - and signalling. On the other hand, St Louis, Melbourne and parts of Hamilton's LRTs are/will be operating in mixed traffic, and Calgary and L.A's LRTs often end up slowing down and waiting at reds. It's not like Europe where you can clearly state "this is a streetcar, this is light rail."

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

You also claim Surrey hasn't said what they "have in mind" but thats totally false. Not only do all designs show segregated right of way, but numerous documents talk about it as well as Signal Priority on the route.

Now the burden of proof is on you. Has it been confirmed if they would implement it, and how?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Not to mention that Portland's system isn't even very good - it's just extensive. Frequencies are still pretty bad and outside of downtown and another couple neighbourhoods it largely just takes you from park and ride to park and ride. Really don't get what the hype is about.

Because as aroundtheworld pointed out, Portland redeveloped the city in tandem with transit upgrades, so to the rest of North America, it looked like the streetcar caused the city to redevelop; post hoc, ergo prompter hoc. So every city looking for an "urban revival" (or just a quick buck) has gotten/is getting in in on the action.

Of course, the problem is that optimizing transportation specifically to cater to developers is like training a fish to climb trees.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Because as aroundtheworld pointed out, Portland redeveloped the city in tandem with transit upgrades, so to the rest of North America, it looked like the streetcar caused the city to redevelop; post hoc, ergo prompter hoc. So every city looking for an "urban revival" (or just a quick buck) has gotten/is getting in in on the action.

Of course, the problem is that optimizing transportation specifically to cater to developers is like training a fish to climb trees.

Exactly. I also agree the Surrey street car, or LRT or whatever they call it is silly from a transportation perspective, however it is likely to be the catalyst that causes developers to be willing to invest in high density along its route. It will be a positive from an urban development perspective.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by casper

Exactly. I also agree the Surrey street car, or LRT or whatever they call it is silly from a transportation perspective, however it is likely to be the catalyst that causes developers to be willing to invest in high density along its route. It will be a positive from an urban development perspective.

Developers don't need LRT to convince them - they're are already building the density they're allowed to in Surrey.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Of the above streetcars I don't believe a single one has a fully dedicated ROW like the Surrey LRT will have, all go into mixed traffic at some point.

In terms of signal priority, it has been mentioned in plenty of documents and explanations of what LRT is and why it differs from streetcars, it will be tied in with the traffic lights no different than Eglinton or Finch in Toronto.

So when they built it St. Clair it was supposed to have signal priority...have they implemented that yet?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Of the above streetcars I don't believe a single one has a fully dedicated ROW like the Surrey LRT will have, all go into mixed traffic at some point.

And yet so do many LRTs - does that make them streetcars? It can be a pretty loose definition in this part of the world.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

In terms of signal priority, it has been mentioned in plenty of documents and explanations of what LRT is and why it differs from streetcars, it will be tied in with the traffic lights no different than Eglinton or Finch in Toronto.

Sure, but said documents say it's at the conceptual stage; I can't find anything more concrete than "several seconds of green time are added for the BRT or LRT based on vehicle detection." Things can be changed, implemented differently or even discarded by opening day.

[Trainguy]

3 April 2018

$4.1 Billion Federal Funding Announcement Could Guarantee New Rapid Transit Lines in Vancouver and Surrey

Ottawa Ontario - The development of a Millennium Line SkyTrain extension along Broadway and two light-rail projects in Surrey are closer to reality.

This is thanks to a major funding agreement between the federal and provincial governments.

The deal will result in $4.1 billion in federal funds flowing into B.C. over the next decade for infrastructure.

According to the federal announcement, these projects will be cost-shared with provincial and municipal governments, and other partners.

The Liberal government has previously pledged to pay up to 50 percent of the cost of rapid transit projects.

Following the 2 Apr 2018 announcement, TransLink CEO Kevin Desmond issued a statement declaring that this "further secures the resources" needed to deliver light rail in Surrey, a SkyTrain extension along Broadway, and 420,000 hours of additional bus-service hours per year.

Last month, TransLink Mayors' Council chair Derek Corrigan announced that the region will get two light-rail lines in Surrey, the Broadway SkyTrain extension, and additional bus service in a fully funded phase two of the transportation plan.

Some observers have been confused by the cost of TransLink's plan.

That's because the original plan put forward by the Mayor's Council before a 2015 plebiscite only included capital expenditures.

That amounted to $7.5 billion over 10 years and included the Pattullo Bridge replacement, three light-rail lines, and a Broadway subway to Arbutus Street.

Now, TransLink is including additional operating costs in its numbers, which will result from adding more transit service.

And the Pattullo Bridge is not part of the 10 year plan because the province has agreed to cover the entire $1.4 billion cost.

Phase two of the 10 year transportation plan, including operating costs, is now pegged at $7 billion.

Various levels of government have not disclosed detail how those capital and operating costs will be divided, though agreements are now in place between TransLink and the province, and between the province and the federal government.

TransLink has estimated that the overall phase two investment plan, including operating costs, will result in about 35 percent of expenditures being covered regionally.

Another 35 to 40 percent will be covered provincially, and 25 to 30 percent by the federal government.

Phase two includes light rail from Surrey Centre to both Guildford and Newton.

But it doesn't include a completed line from Surrey Centre to Langley, which was in the 2015 Mayors' Council proposal.

Instead, TransLink plans to continue funding the design of this light rail line along the Fraser Highway so it will remain on schedule for construction to begin around 2024 once funding can be secured.

In addition, phase two has about $33 million set aside for cycling initiatives.

Municipal governments will have to apply for this money for projects in their communities.

Phase one of the 10 year transportation plan added about $2 billion in operating and capital costs.



Here we go again. The rhetoric about the Line to Langley sounds like the technology has already been decided.

[Firebrand]

How long has this been going?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Call it denial, but that still sounds like plenty of time - and wiggle room - for Langley to back out or for Victoria to override them.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Call it denial, but that still sounds like plenty of time - and wiggle room - for Langley to back out or for Victoria to override them.

Which Langley are you talking about? The Township doesn’t seem to care, and in fact, wants the LRT to go foward.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The Township's more or less on the fence, and the City wants SkyTrain. Again, a lot can happen between then and now.

[Firebrand]

Ok, maybe I was exaggerating on that part, it’s just I kept hearing the media saying that both Langleys will get LRT once the Newton-Guildford section is done. A few months ago, I didn’t hear anything about the Langley Line being set in stone (except from Surrey, of course).

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

Ok, maybe I was exaggerating on that part, it’s just I kept hearing the media saying that both Langleys will get LRT once the Newton-Guildford section is done. A few months ago, I didn’t hear anything about the Langley Line being set in stone (except from Surrey, of course).

Expect to hear a lot this year - because the local elections are in October. They're hoping people will have a short memory and mostly remember what happened (or was talked about) this year.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Expect to hear a lot this year - because the local elections are in October. They're hoping people will have a short memory and mostly remember what happened (or was talked about) this year.

Election Day is 200 days from now, so it makes sense that the current political parties (Surrey in particular) will take any opportunity to promote their projects. It’s going to take a lot of cringe seeing billboards on Fraser Hwy saying “vote for LRT, making SoF more livable, accessible, and more integrated to the communities”.

[Sheba]

Here's an interesting e-mail (slightly edited) I got today.

Surrey is thinking about developing a long-term rapid transit plan to help guide future decisions on where rapid transit should go (after we deliver on KBG/104th and Fraser Highway). We’re thinking very long term – looking out 40-50 years when Surrey has reached full build out. We’re trying to be agnostic on technology (BRT, LRT, SkyTrain) because too many people get hung up on technology. We want to approach this from a network level, improving the mobility of people around Surrey. If we were to build an unconstrained network of rapid transit services in Surrey (and connecting to the rest of the region) what would it look like?

I've already drawn out a bus routes map that's more grid-like than what exists now. Anyone have any ideas before I try to tackle this head on?