Winnipeg | Historical discussion

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by BuildUpWpg

I look at those photos and sigh at the demolition of old city hall. It looks like the fanciest building Winnipeg ever had. Do you think that was the worst demolition blunder in Winnipeg history? I don't mind the 201 Portage demolition because it least it was replaced with arguably the nicest skyscraper in the city.

From what I was reading up on today the old city hall had to be demolished because it was falling apart. Too bad though, I think that would have been the most iconic building in Winnipeg if it were still around.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by BuildUpWpg

I look at those photos and sigh at the demolition of old city hall. It looks like the fanciest building Winnipeg ever had. Do you think that was the worst demolition blunder in Winnipeg history? I don't mind the 201 Portage demolition because it least it was replaced with arguably the nicest skyscraper in the city.

I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here but I don't think the old City Hall was the amazing building that people make it out to be. It was a prominent player in what used to be a wonderful market district with the old market and a lot of stately old buildings, but I don't think the old City Hall was the undisputed architectural star by any measure. Good but not great is how I'd put it. The old City Hall was a nice building for small 1880s Winnipeg, but it was clearly outgrown by the 20th century.

The real sore spot for me is that none of the grandiose designs for replacement city halls in the 1910s and 20s were ever realized. I like the modernist 1960s City Hall we ended up with, but the scale is somewhat modest compared to some of the plans that were hatched earlier in the 20th century.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here but I don't think the old City Hall was the amazing building that people make it out to be. It was a prominent player in what used to be a wonderful market district with the old market and a lot of stately old buildings, but I don't think the old City Hall was the undisputed architectural star by any measure. Good but not great is how I'd put it. The old City Hall was a nice building for small 1880s Winnipeg, but it was clearly outgrown by the 20th century.

The real sore spot for me is that none of the grandiose designs for replacement city halls in the 1910s and 20s were ever realized. I like the modernist 1960s City Hall we ended up with, but the scale is somewhat modest compared to some of the plans that were hatched earlier in the 20th century.

I feel we do a lot of disagreeing . Do have links to any of these plans from the early 20th century? I would love to see something from then.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I feel we do a lot of disagreeing . Do have links to any of these plans from the early 20th century? I would love to see something from then.

The old city hall did have significant structural issues near the end of its life, but it's hard to know if these were more significant than issues facing many older buildings in need of restoration today -- there was less knowledge or sympathy regarding restoring older buildings then. But aside from that, it was a beloved local old landmark (and there weren’t many of them in the 1950s), and was such a wildly effervescent explosion of architectural details – perfectly symbolized the unbridled but delicate optimism of Winnipeg in the 1880s. If it were around today it would certainly be a highly recognized symbol of our city.

There was one proposal in the late 1950s to save the building and convert it into a museum, and build a new administration building and Council Chambers to the west of it.

I think another great loss was the seven-storey Royal Alexandra Hotel at Main and Higgins, which CP closed in the late 1960s and demolished in 1971. Just a few years before the heritage preservation movement began to form in Winnipeg. More sternly austere than the Fort Garry, it was its equal in terms of class, amenities, number of rooms, and importance as a centre of the city’s social life well into the 1960s. And of course it was replaced by a vacant patch of grass.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I feel we do a lot of disagreeing . Do have links to any of these plans from the early 20th century? I would love to see something from then.

Interesting enough, Bellamy recently tweeted about this. From his twitter:

The Gingerbread City Hall was to be replaced in 1913, but was stopped by the war. A design completion was held with the top three getting a prize. Winner was to be built.
1. Clemesha and Portnall of Regina.
2. Woodman and Carey of Winnipeg
3. JD. Atchison of Winnipeg.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here but I don't think the old City Hall was the amazing building that people make it out to be. It was a prominent player in what used to be a wonderful market district with the old market and a lot of stately old buildings, but I don't think the old City Hall was the undisputed architectural star by any measure. Good but not great is how I'd put it. The old City Hall was a nice building for small 1880s Winnipeg, but it was clearly outgrown by the 20th century.

The real sore spot for me is that none of the grandiose designs for replacement city halls in the 1910s and 20s were ever realized. I like the modernist 1960s City Hall we ended up with, but the scale is somewhat modest compared to some of the plans that were hatched earlier in the 20th century.

It was one of the finest examples of high Victorian architecture in Canada. The building should have been preserved and a new city hall constructed in a nearby location. Toronto preserved its incredibly beautiful Romanesque Revival old city hall when it built the new one in the early 60s.

The current city hall is an eyesore. When it opened in 1964 (I think it was '64?) it was labelled the ugliest building in Canada and was already considered too small.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by wardlow

The old city hall did have significant structural issues near the end of its life, but it's hard to know if these were more significant than issues facing many older buildings in need of restoration today -- there was less knowledge or sympathy regarding restoring older buildings then. But aside from that, it was a beloved local old landmark (and there weren’t many of them in the 1950s), and was such a wildly effervescent explosion of architectural details – perfectly symbolized the unbridled but delicate optimism of Winnipeg in the 1880s. If it were around today it would certainly be a highly recognized symbol of our city.

There was one proposal in the late 1950s to save the building and convert it into a museum, and build a new administration building and Council Chambers to the west of it.

I think another great loss was the seven-storey Royal Alexandra Hotel at Main and Higgins, which CP closed in the late 1960s and demolished in 1971. Just a few years before the heritage preservation movement began to form in Winnipeg. More sternly austere than the Fort Garry, it was its equal in terms of class, amenities, number of rooms, and importance as a centre of the city’s social life well into the 1960s. And of course it was replaced by a vacant patch of grass.

Anytime there is talk of a city building in disrepair like the old city hall apparently was I imagine the PSB. That place was being held together with band aides and prayers.

As for the Royal Alexandra Hotel. I think it would be nice building to still be around.

I guess to some extent we have to accept a certain amount of turn over to allow for progress. Both those buildings if preserved would really improve the look of the exchange... not that it is lacking character.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by dmacc

From what I was reading up on today the old city hall had to be demolished because it was falling apart. Too bad though, I think that would have been the most iconic building in Winnipeg if it were still around.

foundation failed.

theres a backfilled creek along the william side
in the 40's the ground shifted allot for some reason damaging it and the old union bank building royal bank spent bunch of money then fixing their foundation while city hall bickerd and decided we cant look to be spending money on our selfs thats a waste and let it get worse

i know this from searching free press archives about the old incinirator on henry... and found snip bits about this as there was an add in the paper looking for bids to do the work on the royal bank building witch resulted in a sedway... and coming across a small artical talking about councle meeting talking about the foundation issues that croped up that yr from ground shifting

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by wardlow

The old city hall did have significant structural issues near the end of its life, but it's hard to know if these were more significant than issues facing many older buildings in need of restoration today -- there was less knowledge or sympathy regarding restoring older buildings then. But aside from that, it was a beloved local old landmark (and there weren’t many of them in the 1950s), and was such a wildly effervescent explosion of architectural details – perfectly symbolized the unbridled but delicate optimism of Winnipeg in the 1880s. If it were around today it would certainly be a highly recognized symbol of our city.

There was one proposal in the late 1950s to save the building and convert it into a museum, and build a new administration building and Council Chambers to the west of it.

I think another great loss was the seven-storey Royal Alexandra Hotel at Main and Higgins, which CP closed in the late 1960s and demolished in 1971. Just a few years before the heritage preservation movement began to form in Winnipeg. More sternly austere than the Fort Garry, it was its equal in terms of class, amenities, number of rooms, and importance as a centre of the city’s social life well into the 1960s. And of course it was replaced by a vacant patch of grass.

The loss of the Royal Alec is sad beyond belief but by the 1960s passenger rail travel had declined precipitously (by the end of the 70s only Union Station would be used for passenger traffic) and that area had already become rather seedy, although no comparison to what it would become even by the 80s. It really is hard to imagine what use could have been made of such a huge building save for some sort of SRO housing which in the 60s was probably off the radar, esp. for an older building.

Fortunately the Fort Garry is still with us. I remember there was talk of its demolition in the 70s and 80s.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The loss of the Royal Alec is sad beyond belief but by the 1960s passenger rail travel had declined precipitously (by the end of the 70s only Union Station would be used for passenger traffic) and that area had already become rather seedy, although no comparison to what it would become even by the 80s. It really is hard to imagine what use could have been made of such a huge building save for some sort of SRO housing which in the 60s was probably off the radar, esp. for an older building.

Fortunately the Fort Garry is still with us. I remember there was talk of its demolition in the 70s and 80s.

For sure. Even if the hotel didn’t close in the 1960s, it would have in the ‘70s or ‘80s. And even if CP tried to sell it, I imagine they couldn’t find a buyer willing to take on something that big. But I would imagine some kind of new use could have come along… the CP station next door sat vacant for a number of years before being repurposed as the Aboriginal Centre. Not a game-changer as far as neighbourhood revitalization is concerned, but it keeps the building standing, occupied, and kept up.

[Roger Strong]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

foundation failed.
theres a backfilled creek along the william side

The backfilled Brown’s Creek and gully.

The original city hall opened on that spot in 1876, and immediately started sinking into the creek bed. Here it is being propped up:



It was pulled down in 1883. Construction on the gingerbread city hall started a year later and was completed in 1886.

By 1913 they were trying to replace it, but it lasted until 1962. (Other than the clock tower, which had to be torn down long before. The clock is now in the clock tower at Portage Place.)

[esquire]

^ I did not know about the structural issues with old City Hall as a result of Brown's Creek. I always kind of chalked up the "it's falling apart" argument regarding old City Hall to being a standard throwaway line that gets trotted out anytime someone wants to demolish a heritage building... sort of how like the old Eaton's Building functioned perfectly fine as a department store until True North came along and then suddenly Eaton's was portrayed as a rotting deathtrap that was about to collapse.

Anyway, my comments weren't meant to suggest that old City Hall had no merit at all because clearly it was a beautiful building. It's just that it was pretty small to begin with and the reasons for replacing it were completely understandable. It was at least replaced by an attractive modernist building even though, as with seemingly every major public building project in Winnipeg, it was somewhat undersized and quickly outgrown. And while old City Hall was great, I don't think it was so spectacular as to be untouchable... if you were to let me magically bring back a demolished heritage building in Winnipeg I think I'd probably sooner select the MacIntyre Block, the old downtown post office, Eaton's or the Manitoba Hotel for starters.

I hate to say it but I think so much of the magic of the old City Hall was its charming setting. Everyone is used to seeing it in historical pictures with handsome old buildings in good repair around it, a streetcar gliding by in front, etc. It wouldn't look quite as nice wedged against cars whizzing by on Main Street today with the PSB parkade in the background of the shot.

[Roger Strong]

Originally Posted by esquire

sort of how like the old Eaton's Building functioned perfectly fine as a department store until True North came along and then suddenly Eaton's was portrayed as a rotting deathtrap that was about to collapse.

Except that the department store company - Eaton's - was gone. And there was no other department store to replace it.

Back when they were trying to decide what to do with the building, the former property manager wrote about it in the Free Press. It hadn't been maintained in years, and would need major renovations to continue or for a new user. There was a tacit agreement with the city not to do any inspections for fear of it being closed immediately. The floors weren't built to take the same loads as the warehouse / City Place.

He also discussed how redevelopment costs and Portage Avenue taxes at the time ruled out any residential use. All proposals at the time included "Step 1: A miracle happens."

[esquire]

^ I'm not saying that there weren't good arguments for demolishing Eaton's. No doubt that as a hundred year old building, Eaton's certainly needed work. But you'd have to be naïve to buy the idea that a building that housed a going concern without issue right up until the chain went under suddenly became a threat to public safety overnight.

[Roger Strong]

Originally Posted by esquire

But you'd have to be naïve to buy the idea that a building that housed a going concern without issue right up until the chain went under suddenly became a threat to public safety overnight.

I don't recall anyone saying that anything happened overnight. Just that any new use would require expensive renovations to bring it up to code. And that it was designed for a business model that was no longer viable.

[Biff]

I love the JD. Atchison version (3rd one)

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Biff

I love the JD. Atchison version (3rd one)

Yeah that was my favourite too

Edit: seeing this makes me wonder what the city would be like had this been built. Sigh... that and the more impressive flagship bay store with the dome.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Roger Strong

The backfilled Brown’s Creek and gully.

The original city hall opened on that spot in 1876, and immediately started sinking into the creek bed. Here it is being propped up:



It was pulled down in 1883. Construction on the gingerbread city hall started a year later and was completed in 1886.

By 1913 they were trying to replace it, but it lasted until 1962. (Other than the clock tower, which had to be torn down long before. The clock is now in the clock tower at Portage Place.)

and the bell is installed in a tower on selkirk that every friday is rung by the community

[LilZebra]

I just got off the phone with an uncle (b. 1933) from my Mom's side.

He said that he used to go to two movie theatres in the N. End back in the day -- The Palace and the State. These were both located on Selkirk Ave.

There was no concession stands like now. Kids would come for the Saturday matinee at 10 am and stay till 4 pm. Their Mom would pack a lunch for them, and being the N. End some of it would be koulbasa.

Nothing at the theatres for food except popcorn. If you wanted something like water to drink you had to sip it from the bathroom sink.

[Bluenote]

The old city hall was unique for its architecture. Even in its boarded up state it still stood out. So not sure where you get this romance from old photos theory.
As for the current one. It’s as ugly as ugly gets. Who in their right mind would build all of those ugly buildings right in the heart of the exchange.

Think about it. How many historic buildings were demolished in the area for the Museum. The concert hall. The PUblic safety building the public safety building parkade and then that eyesore called city hall. That is what killed that area and basically was a concrete wall between south and north main. Then let’s dump that so called freeway in to just top it off.

Had this city NOT destroyed all that I bet the Royal Alexander would still be here and north main wouldn’t be the way it is now.

Those communist buildings should have been build somewhere else. Preferable in some field away from the city and used as fall out shelters.