Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Trainguy]

From the 10 year transit plan..

Implement Surrey LRT lines: The City of Surrey and surrounding communities are among the fastest growing parts of the region, forecast to attract more than 25% of new residents and jobs over the next 30 years. This Vision would introduce light rail transit (LRT) on three corridors:104 Avenue, King George Boulevard and Fraser Highway.
While detailed design work is needed to determine optimal alignments and station locations and funding approach, the objective is to build and bring into service the first two lines—104 Avenue and King George Boulevard—in the first
7 years of the Vision. Design and construction on the Fraser Highway line will commence within the first 8 years and go into service within the first 12 years.

Running LRT down Fraser Hwy is nonsense. I just can't see it happening..

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by trainguy

from the 10 year transit plan..

Implement surrey lrt lines: The city of surrey and surrounding communities are among the fastest growing parts of the region, forecast to attract more than 25% of new residents and jobs over the next 30 years. This vision would introduce light rail transit (lrt) on three corridors:104 avenue, king george boulevard and fraser highway.
While detailed design work is needed to determine optimal alignments and station locations and funding approach, the objective is to build and bring into service the first two lines—104 avenue and king george boulevard—in the first
7 years of the vision. design and construction on the fraser highway line will commence within the first 8 years and go into service within the first 12 years.

running lrt down fraser hwy is nonsense. I just can't see it happening..

What!?! Did they just went “we're going with the Langley LRT, because SkyTrain is ****”? Why the hell did they downgrade it!?

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Firebrand]

My apologies. That was a very stupid way to react.

The wording sounds like the Fraser Hwy line is pretty much decided, but I can’t tell because it’s really vague.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

My apologies. That was a very stupid way to react.

The wording sounds like the Fraser Hwy line is pretty much decided, but I can’t tell because it’s really vague.

Once again (again), it's not over 'till the fat lady sings. All the plan states is that IF all goes according to schedule, the Newton-Guildford line is scheduled to be built next year (2019) and finish six years later (2025), and that the Langley line will start a year or so afterward (2026+).

So in order for Langley to go ahead as light rail, that means that the current Surrey City Council, Langley Township Council AND provincial government need to get reelected this year, and in 2022, and in 2026, and yet still stay the course... all while Surrey's main arteries get shut down for six years to build the first line. How much money are you willing to bet that everybody who isn't Hepner realizes how much of a bad idea this is and starts lobbying for a Langley SkyTrain instead?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

No relax.... I don't understand why you have just jumped on the forums and started screaming this and that at random people and complaining about things that we already knew about...

Except it is not something we already knew about.

I can’t be the only one who noticed this, but all references to the Langley Line called it RRT or simply “The Langley Line / Extensiion.” The technology has not been decided (and that point was even specifically made several times.) That is, until a couple months ago when material published by Surrey starting referring to the Langley Line as LRT, and now very recently that has appeared on some of the Translink documents while others still remain as RRT...

Seriously this situation smells fishy.

I really think we deserve to know what is going on and how any decision was made without any public input so many years before a project.

The Canada Line, Evergreen Line, Broadway Line, even the Surrey L Line all had public open houses / events / surveys before technology was selected.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Except it is not something we already knew about.

I can’t be the only one who noticed this, but all references to the Langley Line called it RRT or simply “The Langley Line / Extensiion.” The technology has not been decided (and that point was even specifically made several times.) That is, until a couple months ago when material published by Surrey starting referring to the Langley Line as LRT, and now very recently that has appeared on some of the Translink documents while others still remain as RRT...

I think the biggest reason is because Election Day is almost six months from now, and Hepner and Council will do anything they can to keep themselves, their LRT and their developer tugboat afloat, even to the point of pressuring neighbouring muncipalities and the Provincial Gov’t to go with LRT, as to not jeopardize the 10 Year Plan.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

As much as you talk about everyone bending heaven and earth to sing the flaws of Skytrain you basically have been running the same messages of hyperbole against LRT for the past 5 pages. Plenty of cities have developed LRT's with more disruptive construction packages than this one and people still keep voting them in. Nobody is forcing LRT on Langley right now so this is basically just a theory, construction start is still at least 4-5 years away. Scythian can happen.

Nice stawman. Do you think people will opt for the Langley LRT after all of that clustershag that will happen in 104 Ave. Sure, nobody’s “forcing” LRT on Fraser Hwy right now, but the way Surrey is pointing fingers is very clear that they want the Langley Line as LRT. Some Langley City Councillors prefer LRT, and the Township Mayor has no qualms on what technology runs on Fraser Hwy, so he decided to go to Surrey’s direction because he wants it on stone ASAP. As MC said earlier, it’ll take a couple elections to keep it going, and there could be a change in direction.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

Nice stawman. Do you think people will opt for the Langley LRT after all of that clustershag that will happen in 104 Ave. Sure, nobody’s “forcing” LRT on Fraser Hwy right now, but the way Surrey is pointing fingers is very clear that they want the Langley Line as LRT. Some Langley City Councillors prefer LRT, and the Township Mayor has no qualms on what technology runs on Fraser Hwy, so he decided to go to Surrey’s direction because he wants it on stone ASAP. As MC said earlier, it’ll take a couple elections to keep it going, and there could be a change in direction.

The problem with LRT to Langley is that it is a closed loop system services just 2 cities. With the expo line staring straight down Fraser Hwy, it only make sense to keep it going. It would be interesting to see survey work done on what kind of trips in the majority would be heading West of Langley or East of KG.

(1) passing west through Surrey(KG Skytrain) to head across the Fraser River to other cities

(2) passing through Surrey(KG Skytrain) to head East to Surrey or Langley

(3) trips originating in Surrey ( not a transfer from Skytrain ) heading east

(4) trips originating in Langley and not transferring to Skytrain but stopping in Surrey

If let's say 80% of the trips fell into #3 or #4, then there is a case for considering LRT. However, if #1 or 2 are in a clear majority, then why even consider LRT and disrupt the flow of travel by forcing people to transfer technologies?

The majority should rule the day if that is even possible to survey correctly.

[M00dy]

Using City of Surrey's own justifications for why they should be different from the rest of Metro Vancouver shows exactly why the Langley phase should be Skytrain, not LRT.

Surrey is intracity with 11 stations over 11km, and as stated by the city of Surrey themselves,

A fast train is not what we want

Using the numbers on that article of end-to-end 11km in 27 minutes, the average speed would be 24km/h.
http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/city-of-surrey-light-rail-transit-train-speed

The Surrey-Langley extension would be intercity, approximately 16km long, and i'm spitballing here but likely...6-8 stations. (anyone know if any have been proposed?) Using Millenium line as an example for average speed at 31.2km in 36 minutes, its average speed is 52km/h.
https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...in_schedule_between_stops_millennium.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Line

Anyone who thinks an LRT is needed to develop an "urban corridor" along Fraser Highway between Surrey and Langley is an idiot. Skytrain hub-type development is far more appropriate. Faster trains for intercity as well...

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

The problem with LRT to Langley is that it is a closed loop system services just 2 cities. With the expo line staring straight down Fraser Hwy, it only make sense to keep it going. It would be interesting to see survey work done on what kind of trips in the majority would be heading West of Langley or East of KG.

(1) passing west through Surrey(KG Skytrain) to head across the Fraser River to other cities

(2) passing through Surrey(KG Skytrain) to head East to Surrey or Langley

(3) trips originating in Surrey ( not a transfer from Skytrain ) heading east

(4) trips originating in Langley and not transferring to Skytrain but stopping in Surrey

If let's say 80% of the trips fell into #3 or #4, then there is a case for considering LRT. However, if #1 or 2 are in a clear majority, then why even consider LRT and disrupt the flow of travel by forcing people to transfer technologies?

The majority should rule the day if that is even possible to survey correctly.

Older data but you can look at the 2011 Regional Trip Diary

p. 61 shows the breakdown SoF (defined here as Surrey, North Delta and White Rock). 76% of trips are within the sub-region. Only 5% are destined to the CoV. 6% go to the Langleys.

p. 66 shows the Langleys: 65% of trips are internal. 18% are connecting to the SoF. 2% go to CoV.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

Older data but you can look at the 2011 Regional Trip Diary

p. 61 shows the breakdown SoF (defined here as Surrey, North Delta and White Rock). 76% of trips are within the sub-region. Only 5% are destined to the CoV. 6% go to the Langleys.

p. 66 shows the Langleys: 65% of trips are internal. 18% are connecting to the SoF. 2% go to CoV.

2011 data is too old since a lot has changed in the past 7 years. More people have moved out to the Valley but still commute to points west and this trend will probably continue for the foreseeable future. 2018 data would be a good place to start.

[nname]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

Older data but you can look at the 2011 Regional Trip Diary

p. 61 shows the breakdown SoF (defined here as Surrey, North Delta and White Rock). 76% of trips are within the sub-region. Only 5% are destined to the CoV. 6% go to the Langleys.

p. 66 shows the Langleys: 65% of trips are internal. 18% are connecting to the SoF. 2% go to CoV.

I feel like you maybe interpreting the data wrong....

The vast majority of trips in every region stay within the subregion. There are the trips where your kid walk to the elementary school; you drive or walk to the local convenient store to pick up something; you go to a neighborhood restaurant to eat or local park to enjoy some sunshine, or go to local salon to get a haircut, etc. These are NOT the trip that are need to be served by transit. No one need or want to take transit to go to their elementary school or their neighborhood park, doesn't matter whether it's a bus, BRT, LRT, or SkyTrain.

Of course there are still 60% of the local trips are done by car, but no matter how much you improve transit, it would just never make sense to convert all those very short trips to transit trips. Many of them are very scattered across every local streets, and hard to just draw one line that will serve everyone. Maybe it is a good idea to convert those walking trip (by increase the workability of the neighborhood and decrease distance where people need to travel to do their errands), but just not something should be targeted by transit.

On the other hand, that 24% of the trips that leave the sub-region are exactly the ones Transit need to capture. They are long trips that add to congestion to everywhere in the region, and they are along major corridors that can be easily served by mass transport. Converting just 1 of these trip to transit may be more beneficial compare to tens or hundreds of the local trips...

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by M00dy

Anyone who thinks an LRT is needed to develop an "urban corridor" along Fraser Highway between Surrey and Langley is an idiot. Skytrain hub-type development is far more appropriate. Faster trains for intercity as well...

There was one guy on the DailyHive comment section who thinks exactly that:

Why go to Metrotown if Surrey is such a great city? You're only proving my point. You should be able to do everything a city provides in Surrey. Trips beyond need only be irregular occurrences in which a transfer is no big deal.

Meanwhile Surrey benefits with transit that encourages people to stay local. A local population supporting it's local economy is what builds cities. Long commutes with nothing to offer in between builds suburbs - aka huge small towns.

What are you looking for in a city?

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

There was one guy on the DailyHive comment section who thinks exactly that:

Well, the fact remains that a lot of people go to the downtown region for a variety of reasons. The Skytrain functions as a way for people to avoid driving long distances to get to where they are going. LRT is an expensive way to try and build a community. Buses work just fine doing that. The preferred way to travel short distances is by car. Skytrain to Langley just gives more people the option to leave their cars at home and take the train west or east. For big events like sports, fireworks, etc etc... can't beat the Skytrain. More people would jump on the train in Langley if it were a quicker ride like Skytrain.

[xd_1771]

2018 data will definitely be better to draw from because of everything that has changed since then. In 2011 we had 2 lanes on the (old) Port Mann Bridge, no 96 B-Line in Surrey, an ongoing deadlock on transit funding and in general a different regional landscape - economically and politically. Apart from the fact that trip survey data can get quickly outdated, personally I think basing our transit future/expansion decisions on things like the regional trip diary is a terrible idea. Essentially what you advocate by modelling future transit systems on current trip patterns is planning for today, not tomorrow. I disagree with that. Rather than catering only to existing travel patterns, rapid transit lines should shift travel patterns. That is how a return on investment is created; that is how you use transit to solve issues in our region.

It's not even hard to see why trips have stayed South-of-Fraser: narrow bridges, inadequate transit and long commute times create challenges for those who commute cross-river. Extending SkyTrain (following the 2012 RRT1A plan) maximizes the 1990s investment we made in the Skybridge. With a significant improvement in cross-river commute times and access, there are a number of issues that could potentially be tackled. As an example, more areas in Surrey (and Langley) become homes for people who need access to the region, creating options for people in a region where housing in general is extremely expensive. Conversely, the South-of-Fraser in general becomes more accessible to those living in the North, with huge benefits to boot. It's not inconceivable that a person living near the Expo Line in Burnaby could be working at Campbell Heights (South Surrey), commuting to the area via SkyTrain to Langley Centre and bus. Last I read there is an industrial land shortage in our metro, so enabling these outlying areas to actually cater to the region is an important step in addressing this challenge.

It kind of irks me how a lot of people (particularly the LRT-proponent/SkyTrain-opponent crowd) are referring to the regional trip diary and numbers on travel patterns as if it is supposed to be the benchmark for our big-money transit decisions. Yes, it's a legitimate quantitative observation on how people are getting around and we need these sorts of things in the decision-making process. At the same time, regional trip patterns are so volatile in nature. If the emphasis is being drawn towards trip patterns that could have totally changed by the next year for any number of reasons, and away from other more qualitative observations that really deserve more consideration in the planning process, the result could be a poorly made decision - and a really expensive mistake.

Also, what nname said. Definitely important to distinguish between the trips that could be served by transit, and trips that transit wouldn't really be targeting anyway.

[twoNeurons]

Actually to be completely honest, doesn't it make MORE sense for a line to Langley to be LRT in its own separated ROW down Lougheed Hwy? Something similar to Seattle's Link?

It would provide SkyTrain like speeds and would more closely tie Langley into a Suburb of Surrey, rather than a suburb of Vancouver. It also potentially offers a one-seat ride from Langley to places along the T-Line.

[Shift]

Originally Posted by M00dy

Anyone who thinks an LRT is needed to develop an "urban corridor" along Fraser Highway between Surrey and Langley is an idiot. Skytrain hub-type development is far more appropriate. Faster trains for intercity as well...

SkyTrain TOD with towers will never develop along Fraser Hwy between Surrey City Centre and Langley. That stretch will always be townhomes / single family, and 4-6 storey at best.

The character of that corridor is alot different than north of the Fraser. It is bisected by a significant chunk of ALR land for one - and will always be lower density. More suited to LRT than SkyTrain guideways.

Commuter service from Langley to Downtown should be West Coast Express style anyway - a skytrain extension would be far too long of a single line (and for such a tiny train such as skytrain). Unfortunately that will never happen.

LRT makes more sense to break it up - more appropriately scaled for the character of the South Fraser.