Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Jurisdiction is certainly an issue, but how do you define central business district? If it is just the Wellington-Bronson-Laurier-Elgin box then you just push people onto adjacent streets and move congestion from streets designed for congestion to those that aren't. If you start pushing the line further out (say Ottawa River-Rideau-River-Trillium line) then you start catching through traffic that is only going downtown because there are no bypass options (most of the inter-provincial traffic, as well as crosstown traffic on the Queensway) which would create rage among the voting public.

Love how you went from an extremely tiny zone to a very large zone as if there were no options in between.

I was thinking something more along the lines of Ottawa River - Rideau Canal - Catherine St - Bronson Ave. This would then allow all of the inter-provincial bridges to be used without entering the congestion zone and crosstown traffic could use the 417 without paying the fee.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Love how you went from an extremely tiny zone to a very large zone as if there were no options in between.

I was thinking something more along the lines of Ottawa River - Rideau Canal - Catherine St - Bronson Ave. This would then allow all of the inter-provincial bridges to be used without entering the congestion zone and crosstown traffic could use the 417 without paying the fee.

That would push a whole lot of traffic onto already-congested streets like Nicholas, Booth, Preston, King Edward and Somerset. Just to repeat my earlier point, what is the advantage to trying to push traffic off of high-capacity streets like Kent that are only congested for maybe 2 hours per day onto lower capacity streets that already have a congestion problem that extends well beyond rush hour?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That would push a whole lot of traffic onto already-congested streets like Nicholas, Booth, Preston, King Edward and Somerset. Just to repeat my earlier point, what is the advantage to trying to push traffic off of high-capacity streets like Kent that are only congested for maybe 2 hours per day onto lower capacity streets that already have a congestion problem that extends well beyond rush hour?

Do you think a lot of people would park east of the canal and walk across it (or take the bus)? It isn't as if there is a lot of usable parking that they could use.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Do you think a lot of people would park east of the canal and walk across it (or take the bus)? It isn't as if there is a lot of usable parking that they could use.

I think some people would do that (there is lots of parking in the market), but I think people already dropping $200 for downtown parking are unlikely to be dissuaded by a congestion tax. In my view the principal impact would be to discourage people from going to centretown/downtown altogether (especially those going for shopping, restaurants, services, etc) and push through traffic outside of centretown and into adjacent neighbourhoods, and I don't see the advantage of doing that.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think some people would do that (there is lots of parking in the market), but I think people already dropping $200 for downtown parking are unlikely to be dissuaded by a congestion tax.

That's a long walk from the market to get to the central business district.

In my view the principal impact would be to discourage people from going to centretown/downtown altogether (especially those going for shopping, restaurants, services, etc) and push through traffic outside of centretown and into adjacent neighbourhoods, and I don't see the advantage of doing that.

Presumably the congestion tax would only be during peak periods (when there is congestion). Most people don't go downtown during rush hour "for shopping, restaurants, services, etc." anyway, so it shouldn't affect that.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That's a long walk from the market to get to the central business district.

15 Minutes

Originally Posted by roger1818

Presumably the congestion tax would only be during peak periods (when there is congestion). Most people don't go downtown during rush hour "for shopping, restaurants, services, etc." anyway, so it shouldn't affect that.

That isn't the model most congestion taxes work on (which are usually active all day), but even if that is what is implemented, most definitions of the the morning and evening rush hours coincide with the opening hours of most centretown/downtown businesses and services.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

15 Minutes

Each way. Long enough to make it not worth saving a few bucks, especially in inclement weather. I guess it depends how large the fee is.

That isn't the model most congestion taxes work on (which are usually active all day),

Most cities that have implemented one have congestion issues all day long. Ours tend to only be during peak periods.

but even if that is what is implemented, most definitions of the the morning and evening rush hours coincide with the opening hours of most centretown/downtown businesses and services.

They may be open during rush hour, but I suspect most of their business during those times are from people who live or work nearby. Those going out of their way to visit the business likely try to do so outside of rush hour, to avoid the congestion.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think some people would do that (there is lots of parking in the market), but I think people already dropping $200 for downtown parking are unlikely to be dissuaded by a congestion tax. In my view the principal impact would be to discourage people from going to centretown/downtown altogether (especially those going for shopping, restaurants, services, etc) and push through traffic outside of centretown and into adjacent neighbourhoods, and I don't see the advantage of doing that.

That's false equivalence.
$3 per day per parking spot charge is maybe 50 cents per shopping trip that happens maybe once a week.
So basically $2 per month (shopping) vs $70 per month (commute).

[lrt's friend]

There is no need for congestion taxes or a congestion zone or congestion fees. Parking fees and parking scarcity are very effective. We cannot take draconian measures based on a single subway line through downtown.

Back to Gothenburg, it was clear that there had been fairly recent investment downtown. A number of blocks had been redeveloped into an indoor shopping centre, much like the Rideau Centre but I think they reused the original buildings and closed in the streets to make them indoor walkways like you see inside a shopping mall. This was very close to the central railway station. As I said, there were a lot pedestrians walking around the downtown area. As it was spring, and the weather was quite nice, the outdoor patios were full of people. It may have been a weekend.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

That's false equivalence.
$3 per day per parking spot charge is maybe 50 cents per shopping trip that happens maybe once a week.
So basically $2 per month (shopping) vs $70 per month (commute).

Unless I am totally mistaken roger1818 wasn't proposing a parking spot charge, he was proposing a charge to enter the downtown area. I was responding to that.

But I also don't see the point of a parking spot charge. Parking costs (temporary or monthly) have been increasing for years at a rate higher than inflation and congestion remains.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

15 Minutes

So, if you live in Orleans/Kanata/Barrhaven, a thirty/forty minute commute in the morning, a fifteen minute walk (have fun in the winter), and then another fifteen minute walk and another thirty/forty back home. That's 1h30/2h00 a day in commuting, and you're still walking outside for a half hour. Sounds like fun.

If anything, the LRT will make park-and-rides more viable at locations nearby to stations as the trains will be more reliable time-wise and more comfortable to ride than buses.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by JHikka

So, if you live in Orleans/Kanata/Barrhaven, a thirty/forty minute commute in the morning, a fifteen minute walk (have fun in the winter), and then another fifteen minute walk and another thirty/forty back home. That's 1h30/2h00 a day in commuting, and you're still walking outside for a half hour. Sounds like fun.

If anything, the LRT will make park-and-rides more viable at locations nearby to stations as the trains will be more reliable time-wise and more comfortable to ride than buses.

Phase 1 offers zero Park n Ride possibilities. Phase 2 offers three, including the tiny one at Baseline station. Our Park n Ride locations were based on our Transitway plans rather than LRT. The Trillium Line will offer better Park n Ride possibilities but it does not go downtown.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

So, if you live in Orleans/Kanata/Barrhaven, a thirty/forty minute commute in the morning, a fifteen minute walk (have fun in the winter), and then another fifteen minute walk and another thirty/forty back home. That's 1h30/2h00 a day in commuting, and you're still walking outside for a half hour. Sounds like fun.

If anything, the LRT will make park-and-rides more viable at locations nearby to stations as the trains will be more reliable time-wise and more comfortable to ride than buses.

Many people aren't bothered by a 15 minute walk.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Unless I am totally mistaken roger1818 wasn't proposing a parking spot charge, he was proposing a charge to enter the downtown area.

I was arguing that a congestion charge could work if done right.

But I also don't see the point of a parking spot charge. Parking costs (temporary or monthly) have been increasing for years at a rate higher than inflation and congestion remains.

As shown in London, congestion charges don't reduce congestion, they prevent the increase in congestion. The roads have a fixed capacity. It doesn't matter how much parking costs if the parking lots fill up. The only way to decrease congestion is to reduce the number of people driving. You can do that by making driving less desirable (or even possible) than other options.

The problem with parking taxes is they only affect those who choose to park their car. Those who drive through the city without parking (to drop someone off, pick someone up, or are just driving through) aren't negatively affected, but do add to the congestion.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As shown in London, congestion charges don't reduce congestion, they prevent the increase in congestion. The roads have a fixed capacity. It doesn't matter how much parking costs if the parking lots fill up. The only way to decrease congestion is to reduce the number of people driving. You can do that by making driving less desirable (or even possible) than other options.

Roads within the congestion zone you have proposed are generally less congested than roads outside of it. The congestion zone charge you have proposed would have the effect of moving traffic from less congested downtown/centretown to more congested streets outside of it. That makes no sense.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Roads within the congestion zone you have proposed are generally less congested than roads outside of it. The congestion zone charge you have proposed would have the effect of moving traffic from less congested downtown/centretown to more congested streets outside of it. That makes no sense.

I was going to say something like this.

I drive in Ottawa CBD from time to time during rush hour, and it seems to me that most streets are pretty free-flowing except for a handful of pressure points where the roads are routes to the Queensway or interprovincial bridges: like Wellington westbound, O'Connor southbound, Laurier east of Elgin, etc. And of course the bus lanes on Albert and Slater - but the other lanes on those streets are usually OK.

There is traffic of course but overall it's hardly a gridlocked area - even during rush hour.

[acottawa]

Just to add to my earlier point. Currently, in the middle of the afternoon rush hour, the dark red zones on google traffic are Queensway westbound between Bronson and Carling, Island Park northbound, SJAM westbound at Parkdale, the Chaudiere Bridge northbound, St Patrick Westbound, and King Edward Northbound and several sections of Montreal Road eastbound and Queensway eastbound at Blair. There are several patches at various points on Hunt Club as well.

Nothing in Centretown or downtown and mostly on routes associated with inter-provincial commuters returning to Gatineau.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Just to add to my earlier point. Currently, in the middle of the afternoon rush hour, the dark red zones on google traffic are Queensway westbound between Bronson and Carling, Island Park northbound, SJAM westbound at Parkdale, the Chaudiere Bridge northbound, St Patrick Westbound, and King Edward Northbound and several sections of Montreal Road eastbound and Queensway eastbound at Blair. There are several patches at various points on Hunt Club as well.

Nothing in Centretown or downtown and mostly on routes associated with inter-provincial commuters returning to Gatineau.

Sounds about right. Looks like congestion charges should be in the suburbs, not downtown.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Sounds about right. Looks like congestion charges should be in the suburbs, not downtown.

It also shows that if transit were improved so that it bypasses traffic choke points, there could be opportunities to grow ridership. As long as transit remains clogged up with the same traffic, there are no opportunities.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It also shows that if transit were improved so that it bypasses traffic choke points, there could be opportunities to grow ridership. As long as transit remains clogged up with the same traffic, there are no opportunities.

That is true. Many of those routes have little transit at all, let alone any transit priority.