Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Uhuniau; I'm trying to understand. Could you please give us a breakdown of why you think STO service is better on Wellington than Albert and Slater?

Could you please give me a breakdown of why you think it's STO buses that I'm talking about on Wellington, because it's not.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Could you please give me a breakdown of why you think it's STO buses that I'm talking about on Wellington, because it's not.

I was under the impression you were against the removal of transit buses from Wellington all-together. I think a few other forumers were to. If you're ok with removing STO, then I withdraw my question and apologize for the miss-understanding.

I'll post this again; according to the City's plans, they will be keeping a few routes on Wellington (west bound only it seems);


http://www.westsideaction.com/oc-transpo-bus-routes-downtown-2018-version/

Compared to the current set-up;


https://library.carleton.ca/library-news/oc-transpo-transit-route-gis-data-available

[agl]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Wellington makes no sense transit wise for myself and many Gatineau residents. Every time i get off the STO bus on Wellington to walk to Slater during morning rush hour, i would say 95% walk to Slater either to go to work or transfer while the rest either go to work on Wellington or stay on the bus to go to Rideau.

Even the Mayor of Gatineau said the changes for the STO will bring Gatineau residents closer to their destinations which is why i cant wait for the LRT to start. With 40% of STO users working in Ottawa it is imperative to make things easier and these route changes due to LRT make the most sense transit wise.

While I'm fine with STO buses moving to Albert and Slater, I fear it will be fantastic mess of things for pedestrians and traffic alike with all the required turns at Bank, Kent, Queen and Lyon for the 3 routings being implemented. Also, as only the main trunk line routes (200, 59, etc) will travel the entire corridor to and from Mackenzie-King Bridge, everyone else headed east of Bank will have to transfer to one of these buses or go 3-4 stories underground to LRT for two-three stops.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Sure, but it's not the removal of STO buses from Wellington that concerns me as much as the fetish that's been placed on removing OC Transpo ones, for BS supposedly aesthetic reasons.

There needs to be a balance. If Rideau is jammed at rush hour with dozens of buses this is not good for transit users or pedestrians alike. I also agree that no buses on Rideau runs the risk of making it a bit of a ghost-town. The right amount of hybrid or fully-electric vehicles will keep the area safe/vibrant but won't hinder their purpose (people moving). No matter what, moving thousands of current transit users into the LRT tunnel will allow for some creative solutions and options, something we don't have any of currently.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by agl

While I'm fine with STO buses moving to Albert and Slater, I fear it will be fantastic mess of things for pedestrians and traffic alike with all the required turns at Bank, Kent, Queen and Lyon for the 3 routings being implemented. Also, as only the main trunk line routes (200, 59, etc) will travel the entire corridor to and from Mackenzie-King Bridge, everyone else headed east of Bank will have to transfer to one of these buses or go 3-4 stories underground to LRT for two-three stops.

Maybe we've hashed this out already but my two cents are thus:

1. In my experience, its really just the STO buses that are lined up along Rideau and Wellington that get really crazy around rush hour. Does OC Transpo use the stops in front of parliament, or just STO? I can't quite remember.

2. It really WILL be a shazzola of a pickle for buses to have to cross pedestrians at turns three times instead of once, especially the further south you go.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

Maybe we've hashed this out already but my two cents are thus:

1. In my experience, its really just the STO buses that are lined up along Rideau and Wellington that get really crazy around rush hour. Does OC Transpo use the stops in front of parliament, or just STO? I can't quite remember.

.

Yes, OC Transpo uses those stops as well - but only as far as Bank. And only a few routes: the 1, the 7 and maybe a couple of others.

[J.OT13]

I predict that they (OC and STO) will quickly realize that the loop around Lyon Station is a terrible idea and re-jig the whole thing.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I predict that they (OC and STO) will quickly realize that the loop around Lyon Station is a terrible idea and re-jig the whole thing.

100%. I was talking to a bus driver the other day and he said that all the right turns on and off of Bank, the right-then-left across several lanes of traffic on Kent, and the right onto Lyon will be a gong show. To say nothing of the confusion for riders as to which bus stops where at which hour in which direction.

This plan is a perfect example of 'design-by-Google-Earth', where all the lines look neat and logical from 20 000 ft, but when comes time to actually consider how many light cycles it will take 10 artic buses to turn right from Bank to Albert at rush hour (the answer is 10, according to the bus driver) or how riders will actually deal with the system, it falls apart. And I predict that it will.

There needs to be a simpler and less curvy route. If buses MUST be removed from Wellington - something I still don't see as necessary - I would propose that Bay Street become a transit-only (at least between Queen and Wellington), bi-directional link to Albert and Slater and that all STO buses run along a single route.



(blue is reserved bus lanes, red is LRT).

One big advantage is that buses can avoid being stuck in/contributing to the horrible morning traffic on Wellington trying to turn right onto Lyon (it often backs up all the way to the bridge). They'd run completely in their own lanes. It also eliminates the cumbersome and disruptive turns in the pedestrian-heavy parts of downtown (i.e Bank and Queen). It's also simpler to use and understand for riders to have one logical route instead of variable unidirectional loops depending on the route, the time of the day, and the alignment of moons of Saturn.


___

I don't think that buses necessarily have to be on Wellington (although the arguments for their removal seem insufficient to me). My big beef is that the alternative which is being put in place will be a real inconvenience for riders. Heck, I'm seriously considering buying a second-hand bike I can keep downtown so that when I commute into Ottawa in the mornings, I can just get off in Hull and pedal my way downtown to avoid being stuck in a bus stuck in traffic trying to turn right onto Lyon, which might easily add 10 minutes to the trip if the weather is anything but ideal. At absolute best, the changes will not make the experience of taking the bus worse and it's quite likely that it will make it more complicated and slower, so I have a hard time getting super excited about it.

[acottawa]

I think that is a sensible approach.

[kmcamp]

Does anybody know what they mean by "digital signband"? Looking at the installation at Blair the other day and what they are called in the construction updates, I'm wondering if they are a bit fancier than I was expecting, and are actually some sort of digital display.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think that is a sensible approach.

I prefer the city of Ottawa's plan

[lrt's friend]

Just look at the two maps. The current map is much simpler despite being all buses. Buses uniformly cross downtown in mostly straight lines.

The proposed map is like spaghetti. Every bus route makes multiple turns. The number of left turns is crazy.

Regardless, how will turning buses deal with pedestrians? How will articulated buses deal with all the turns in snowy weather? We all know how that works. Delays are inevitable.

A lot of this could have been avoided by having stations at Bay, Bank and Elgin. We are going to pay big time for being cheap.

Also, by having many STO not going to the Rideau Centre, we are not offering easy service to the main retail area of downtown.

The general impression given is that bus riders downtown will be considered nuisances to be barely tolerated once all the suburbanites are switched to the Confederation Line.

[J.OT13]

I like Aylmer's proposal for the STO. It greatly simplifies the network. And honestly, how many Gatineau workers will actually have to transfer to the Confederation Line? Other than the few who work at Tunney's? The few can walk a block or two. Or, if direct connection is absolutely necessary, use Chaudère-Booth-Albert/Slater for a connection with Pimsi (at least for one STO Rapibus route).

A little off topic, but Québec City has a new transit plan. 3 billion dollars and they expect the Province and Feds to cover it 100% (40/60). How much do you want to bet the upper level governments will agree? When Ottawa never gets more (and in most cases gets less) than a third funding form the Feds. How much do you want to bet that Gatineau, when they come up with a plan for the west end, won't get anything near such a sweet deal?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-city-tramway-announcement-1.4577912

More info on QC's plans here.

Obviously, QC is half the size of Ottawa, but here are some numbers to compare with Confederation; 23 km, of which 2.6 km tunnel downtown (but with 4 stations instead of 3) with an additional kilometer with station in Sainte-Foy. Trains are 43 meters instead of 49/98 meters. Initial rush hour capacity of 5,200 pphpd as opposed to Ottawa's 10,000 phpd. Top speed of 70 km/h as opposed to Ottawa's 100 km/h. Serves more urban areas per kilometer, but they can't bypass that as well as Ottawa.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I like Aylmer's proposal for the STO. It greatly simplifies the network. And honestly, how many Gatineau workers will actually have to transfer to the Confederation Line? Other than the few who work at Tunney's? The few can walk a block or two. Or, if direct connection is absolutely necessary, use Chaudère-Booth-Albert/Slater for a connection with Pimsi (at least for one STO Rapibus route).

A little off topic, but Québec City has a new transit plan. 3 billion dollars and they expect the Province and Feds to cover it 100% (40/60). How much do you want to bet the upper level governments will agree? When Ottawa never gets more (and in most cases gets less) than a third funding form the Feds. How much do you want to bet that Gatineau, when they come up with a plan for the west end, won't get anything near such a sweet deal?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-city-tramway-announcement-1.4577912

More info on QC's plans here.

Obviously, QC is half the size of Ottawa, but here are some numbers to compare with Confederation; 23 km, of which 2.6 km tunnel downtown (but with 4 stations instead of 3) with an additional kilometer with station in Sainte-Foy. Trains are 43 meters instead of 49/98 meters. Initial rush hour capacity of 5,200 pphpd as opposed to Ottawa's 10,000 phpd. Top speed of 70 km/h as opposed to Ottawa's 100 km/h. Serves more urban areas per kilometer, but they can't bypass that as well as Ottawa.

I don't like Alymer's plans because it doesn't provide a direct connection to confederation line. A lot of Gatineau residents myself included work in Ottawa's east end so i usually take a bus to Hurdman station to transfer to the 42 to get to Trainyards when the 86 is not around. Since confederation line will replace that crosstown route, I would be taking a bus to Lyon station directly and take the train to Hurdman instead which will be far better. Just so you know i usually take multiple transfers to get to work so that part doesn't bother me, the only part i dont like currently is having to get off at wellington when that street is absolutely useless to me.

While the city's map looks like spaghetti, the new routes should be easier for the drivers to handle since making a left turn on to Bank is tough since they have less room to deal with and sometimes idiot car drivers stop past the white line cutting into the space for the driver to turn and i have seen this on other streets as well.

Will it be a mess when it first starts, yeah sure but come on guys give their system a chance to work before you bash it we still have months to go.

I really wish the city would consider either banning car drivers from the downtown core or even charge them a tax for every km driven and force them to use transit.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cities-go...sks-drivers-to-pay-a-congestion-charge-7

[acottawa]

Another option might be to convert the east side of Lyon (which is underused anyway) into a busway to Albert and slater. They could also convert the Nicholas intersection into a roundabout to allow the buses to just turn around.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Another option might be to convert the east side of Lyon (which is underused anyway) into a busway to Albert and slater. They could also convert the Nicholas intersection into a roundabout to allow the buses to just turn around.

Good Day.

For Lyon St., northbound from Queen St. to Wellington, that is exactly what is happening, and is already 3/4 built.
Southbound Lyon, on the west side, south of Queen, in front of the west entrance to Lyon station, also indicates bus 'pads'.
The fastest lookup I could find, and it diagrams it well, is off McKenney's website :

http://catherinemckenney.ca/en/2017/11/lyon-street-redesign/

EnJoy.

[Richard Eade]

Here I have overlaid the City’s plan for the Lyon at Queen intersection onto a BING satellite view:



Ignore the fact that the ‘North’ arrow on the City’s plan is not precisely pointing north.

In typical City fashion, they are busy redesigning Queen and Lyon, but there is no indication that they have even considered that they will now have to completely redesign the Lyon and Wellington intersection so that STO buses can turn left. And will that left-turn ability be extended to the cars that have come from the Place du Ville parking? You will have noticed, I’m sure, that those cars can currently leave the parking and go either way on Lyon, north or south. The north-bound stream, however, only allows for a right turn at Wellington. The new bus-only lanes will be north-bound along Lyon, so cars will no longer be able to go south from the parking. The bus-only lanes do not extend north of the garage exit, and cars will join buses heading north, under the arch.

When the City gets around to redesigning the intersection of Lyon and Wellington, will all north-bound traffic from Lyon be able to turn both left and right onto Wellington?

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

Beautiful work !!

I EnJoyed!

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I don't like Alymer's plans because it doesn't provide a direct connection to confederation line.

I think that you overestimate the distance between Bay and Queen. It's 120 meters. That is, in my opinion, a very manageable distance, especially when you consider that Bay Street would allow transit users to make significant time savings compared to Lyon. Or, put another way, would you spend an extra 10 minutes per day in the bus just to save yourself a 1 minute walk?

A lot of Gatineau residents myself included work in Ottawa's east end

According to the Origin-Destination matrices , about 7% of Gatineau transit commuters are headed east of downtown Ottawa. That's not nothing, but it's not a whole lot either, especially when you consider that a portion of these commuters will be taking the bus to the east along Rideau instead of taking the Confederation Line.

But in any case, even for the 7% of eastbound commuters from Gatineau, a straight Bay St alignment with reserved lanes would result in time savings. And for the other 30% headed for downtown, the time savings would be even greater by avoiding the zig-zags, loops, and the short-turns at Bank.

Will it be a mess when it first starts, yeah sure but come on guys give their system a chance to work before you bash it we still have months to go.

I'm generally not a fan of this type of argument. Unless it's a cold or a rash, the wait-and-see attitude usually just results in people getting used to a bad situation as opposed to it actually getting better. Even after people give up on grumbling about it, transit commutes will still be longer and less usable.

It's kind of like two trains headed for a heads-on collision on a single track: There is compelling evidence to suggest we should be concerned with the outcome and it would best for all involved to deal with the situation before it happens as opposed to adoption a wait-and-see approach.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I really wish the city would consider either banning car drivers from the downtown core or even charge them a tax for every km driven and force them to use transit.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cities-go...sks-drivers-to-pay-a-congestion-charge-7

Every few months, this proposal comes back and the person making the proposal quotes London and other European cities.

For one, traffic congestion in Ottawa isn't really that bad. Two, Ottawa is much smaller than most cities who have this type of system. Three, our transit system is minuscule compared to these European cities. Even with stage 2, it will basically just serve park-and-rides. Gatineau is in an even worse situation.

The only Canadian city he could justify charging people to drive into downtown is Montreal in 10-15 years once the REM and Pink Line open.